EPTI don't know if they will strip the medal, obviously she wasn't doing it on purpose like steroid abuse, but I doubt she has a career any more.
Gender test required for runner? - Page 7
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deL
Australia5540 Posts
I don't know if they will strip the medal, obviously she wasn't doing it on purpose like steroid abuse, but I doubt she has a career any more. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10713 Posts
On September 11 2009 15:50 DM20 wrote: + Show Spoiler + In 2003, Wickenheiser became the first woman to score a goal playing in a men's professional league. Over the course of the season, Wickenheiser played 23 games, scoring 2 goals and adding 10 assists.[2][4][5] Wickenheiser joined a European league to play professional hockey, as the game is more open and less physical than North American leagues. This attempt to play professional hockey was not an entirely smooth process, as Wickenheiser was initially slated to play in Italy, until the Italian Winter Sports Federation ruled that women were ineligible to play in a men's league. She also turned down an offer from Phil Esposito to play for the Cincinnati Cyclones of the ECHL. Finland's Hockey Federation unanimously supported letting women play in a men's league, allowing her to debut with HC Salamat in the Suomi-sarja, the third highest hockey league in Finland, on January 10, 2003.[6] Wickenheiser played briefly with Salamat in 2004. They had won promotion to Mestis, Finland's second tier of professional hockey, and this was not as good a fit for her. She left the team after ten games. In 2007, Wickenheiser had a week-long tryout contract with Swedish club IFK Arboga IK in the Swedish male third league. After two practice games, where Wickenheiser scored two goals in the first game, she was not offered a contract.[7] In 2008, Wickenheiser signed a one year contract with Eskilstuna Linden, also in the Swedish men's third league.[8][9] She didn't play in the NHL, she played in some European league. That's like tossgirl coming and winning a foreign tourney. "the third highest hockey league in Finland" Is the important part. She was playing in the THIRD league... Thats not even close to top level. She for sure wasn't bad, but competing with really good males? Never... It also states she dropped out once her team went a league up. Also i don't know about the overall quality of finlands hockey league (every european country has it's own and the quality between countries varies widely). She was good, very good, staggeringly good - for a woman. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 22 2009 09:11 Jibba wrote: The biggest strength advantage is upper body, which isn't as important, since wrestling isn't a lifting competition. Women should always be able to get inside control in a normal stance because they can bring their arms together, men can't. Try touching your elbows together in front of your body (with your arms sticking out), and ask a woman in your house to do it. That's a huge advantage. It'd probably allow them to be a good offensive lineman as well. I can't speak to why the girls at your school sucked, but my guess is it had more to do with training and social conditions (not being as competitive, or not being taught at a young age) more than physiological ability. Jibba, you seem to be relatively intelligent, so I have to assume that you are trolling here. You can't seriously believe, based on armchair theory-spinning, that women have a pound-for-pound advantage over men in wrestling. Lots of people in the thread have already explained why you're wrong (pound-for-pound != strength-for-strength; if you adjusted for body-fat percentage then it might be an interesting question), but all else aside, the data does exist. It's not as though women have never competed against men in wrestling. Because of Title IX, and a dearth of women's wrestling programs, women have frequently wrestled in the "men's" wrestling program, especially in high school. In high school wrestling, especially at lower weight classes, girls have had some success; there was even one who won the Alaska state championship (for her weight class) a few years ago. However, at 103 pounds, most boys of that weight have probably not finished going through puberty. Perhaps it is hard to judge who does better overall at low weight classes in high school because of the disparity in numbers; although boys win nearly all of the titles, there are also far more boys competing in high school wrestling than girls. In any case, once you start talking about fully grown men and women, there is no longer any question. Women are allowed to compete against men in college as well, if there is no women's wrestling program; that rarely happens, simply because they don't have the strength to compete. I remember reading about one exception to the rule: Patricia Miranda. She wrestled throughout her college career, losing every match she started in. Finally she picked up a single victory, which was considered extremely impressive, since it was only the second time a woman had beaten a man in NCAA history. She then went on to get a bronze medal in the Olympics. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 11 2009 16:08 iCCup.deL wrote: She has testes, and lacks ovaries or a womb. I don't know if they will strip the medal, obviously she wasn't doing it on purpose like steroid abuse, but I doubt she has a career any more. You're from Australia, eh? apparently the Australian media has jumped the gun | ||
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BookTwo
1985 Posts
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Biochemist
United States1008 Posts
Embryos all start developing as females. At a specific point early on, the SRY gene (located on Y chromosome) activates, releasing androgen which starts a cascade of reactions ultimately leading to the development of the fetus as a male. If the SRY gene is broken or missing, or if the androgen receptors aren't working properly, or a whole host of other issues, you will develop as a female even with the XY karyotype. There have also been cases of people with XX that have the SRY transposed onto the X chromosome that end up developing as males. By ALL appearances (they're even fertile in some cases), these people are the sex they appear to be... but they would fail a genetics based gender test. Where do you draw the line? | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On August 22 2009 09:11 Jibba wrote: Women should always be able to get inside control in a normal stance because they can bring their arms together, men can't. Try touching your elbows together in front of your body (with your arms sticking out), I can do this sup | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32058 Posts
On September 11 2009 15:50 DM20 wrote: + Show Spoiler + In 2003, Wickenheiser became the first woman to score a goal playing in a men's professional league. Over the course of the season, Wickenheiser played 23 games, scoring 2 goals and adding 10 assists.[2][4][5] Wickenheiser joined a European league to play professional hockey, as the game is more open and less physical than North American leagues. This attempt to play professional hockey was not an entirely smooth process, as Wickenheiser was initially slated to play in Italy, until the Italian Winter Sports Federation ruled that women were ineligible to play in a men's league. She also turned down an offer from Phil Esposito to play for the Cincinnati Cyclones of the ECHL. Finland's Hockey Federation unanimously supported letting women play in a men's league, allowing her to debut with HC Salamat in the Suomi-sarja, the third highest hockey league in Finland, on January 10, 2003.[6] Wickenheiser played briefly with Salamat in 2004. They had won promotion to Mestis, Finland's second tier of professional hockey, and this was not as good a fit for her. She left the team after ten games. In 2007, Wickenheiser had a week-long tryout contract with Swedish club IFK Arboga IK in the Swedish male third league. After two practice games, where Wickenheiser scored two goals in the first game, she was not offered a contract.[7] In 2008, Wickenheiser signed a one year contract with Eskilstuna Linden, also in the Swedish men's third league.[8][9] She didn't play in the NHL, she played in some European league. That's like tossgirl coming and winning a foreign tourney. It's not even close to that. 2-10-12 in 23 games is barely .5 ppg, and that's in the scrub leagues of the very finesse-orientated European leagues. It's good for a woman, but no where near good for a professional. She'd get absolutely dominated in the ECHL, which isn't exactly a high level of skill either. The physical NA game would kill her. The only position where a woman could possibly truly succeed in hockey would be goalie, but size might kill them there as well. Women in men's sports (besides HS wrestling with a 104pound girl beating a mid-puberty guy of same weight) doesn't work. Even sports that don't really put an emphasis on strength (say, soccer) they'd still get beat. It's required enough that the difference would do them in. Any girls that can compete and succeed in mens sports are a total aberration, maybe something liek %1 percent of the athletic population | ||
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 11 2009 16:42 Velr wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 11 2009 15:50 DM20 wrote: + Show Spoiler + In 2003, Wickenheiser became the first woman to score a goal playing in a men's professional league. Over the course of the season, Wickenheiser played 23 games, scoring 2 goals and adding 10 assists.[2][4][5] Wickenheiser joined a European league to play professional hockey, as the game is more open and less physical than North American leagues. This attempt to play professional hockey was not an entirely smooth process, as Wickenheiser was initially slated to play in Italy, until the Italian Winter Sports Federation ruled that women were ineligible to play in a men's league. She also turned down an offer from Phil Esposito to play for the Cincinnati Cyclones of the ECHL. Finland's Hockey Federation unanimously supported letting women play in a men's league, allowing her to debut with HC Salamat in the Suomi-sarja, the third highest hockey league in Finland, on January 10, 2003.[6] Wickenheiser played briefly with Salamat in 2004. They had won promotion to Mestis, Finland's second tier of professional hockey, and this was not as good a fit for her. She left the team after ten games. In 2007, Wickenheiser had a week-long tryout contract with Swedish club IFK Arboga IK in the Swedish male third league. After two practice games, where Wickenheiser scored two goals in the first game, she was not offered a contract.[7] In 2008, Wickenheiser signed a one year contract with Eskilstuna Linden, also in the Swedish men's third league.[8][9] She didn't play in the NHL, she played in some European league. That's like tossgirl coming and winning a foreign tourney. "the third highest hockey league in Finland" Is the important part. She was playing in the THIRD league... Thats not even close to top level. She for sure wasn't bad, but competing with really good males? Never... It also states she dropped out once her team went a league up. Also i don't know about the overall quality of finlands hockey league (every european country has it's own and the quality between countries varies widely). She was good, very good, staggeringly good - for a woman. Hi, I'm Finnish. There's the SM-League, which, albeit still quite low compared to the international standards and comparing to NHL and even the Russian and Swedish and Swiss leagues, is still quite high-caliber and has plenty of national team players. Then there's Mestis aka mestausliiga, which is the second-highest league. There's basically only a couple of decent teams, and most of the games are really bad from what I've seen in the television. The worst teams there are total garbage, and the players don't really earn a lot of money. I believe that quite a few of the worse players could almost be considered amateurs from the amount of money they earn. Then the third league is... very bad, total garbage. -_- Getting that kind of scores there could be compared to... Oh I don't even know, Tossgirl placing 4th in a SC2GG Weekly. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
Damn, I didn't know you were a girl! Actually, I could touch mine too, but not aligning the arms "straight out", instead a little bent like this "\/". | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:58 qrs wrote: Jibba, you seem to be relatively intelligent, so I have to assume that you are trolling here. You can't seriously believe, based on armchair theory-spinning, that women have a pound-for-pound advantage over men in wrestling. Lots of people in the thread have already explained why you're wrong (pound-for-pound != strength-for-strength; if you adjusted for body-fat percentage then it might be an interesting question), but all else aside, the data does exist. It's not as though women have never competed against men in wrestling. Because of Title IX, and a dearth of women's wrestling programs, women have frequently wrestled in the "men's" wrestling program, especially in high school. In high school wrestling, especially at lower weight classes, girls have had some success; there was even one who won the Alaska state championship (for her weight class) a few years ago. However, at 103 pounds, most boys of that weight have probably not finished going through puberty. Perhaps it is hard to judge who does better overall at low weight classes in high school because of the disparity in numbers; although boys win nearly all of the titles, there are also far more boys competing in high school wrestling than girls. In any case, once you start talking about fully grown men and women, there is no longer any question. Women are allowed to compete against men in college as well, if there is no women's wrestling program; that rarely happens, simply because they don't have the strength to compete. I remember reading about one exception to the rule: Patricia Miranda. She wrestled throughout her college career, losing every match she started in. Finally she picked up a single victory, which was considered extremely impressive, since it was only the second time a woman had beaten a man in NCAA history. She then went on to get a bronze medal in the Olympics. Wrestling is messed up, because the weight category system --> wrestlers who have less body fat than is healthy will win. Perhaps if a certain base-level body fat (maybe 10% for men, 17% for women) were discounted from your weight measurement, wrestlers would be healthier and women would have a chance. | ||
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shidonu
United States50 Posts
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ForSC2
United States580 Posts
In most physical sports it's easy to know why it is very difficult for women to compete in such events. Through nature women will effectively have the body equivalent of a 14 year old boy, which makes it very unfair from the start to compete in something like wrestling since even if they can get as strong as their competitors they have to work much harder to simply reach the same level. Why do you all feel there has been a distinct lack of women achieving top level play in non physical competitions? Aside from lack of interest. | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
On September 12 2009 06:19 ForSC2 wrote: What I'm really wondering is why it felt like women had a hard time competing in korean pro starcraft as well. In chess I also read that the last of the three Polgar sisters was the top rated woman's chess player in the world at 36 or so, yet was the only woman in the top 100. She was essentially trained from birth along with her two older sisters to be a chess grandmaster in an effort to prove genius was made not born. In most physical sports it's easy to know why it is very difficult for women to compete in such events. Through nature women will effectively have the body equivalent of a 14 year old boy, which makes it very unfair from the start to compete in something like wrestling since even if they can get as strong as their competitors they have to work much harder to simply reach the same level. Why do you all feel there has been a distinct lack of women achieving top level play in non physical competitions? Aside from lack of interest. Of course genius is made, not born, but tiny differences in genetic ability will compound over the thousands and thousands of hours of work ALL chess grandmasters put into studying the game. The sample size for women is so much smaller in ALL competitive events, so statistically speaking the quantity disparity (only one woman in top 100) proves nothing. I personally theorize that if the sample sizes were the same, there would still be significantly more male outliers, but that's not falsifiable and thus pure conjecture. If women were unable to achieve grandmaster level play it'd be a different story, but there is enough gender parity for the differences to be negligible or inconclusive. | ||
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
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integral
United States3156 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On September 11 2009 21:58 qrs wrote: Jibba, you seem to be relatively intelligent, so I have to assume that you are trolling here. You can't seriously believe, based on armchair theory-spinning, that women have a pound-for-pound advantage over men in wrestling. Lots of people in the thread have already explained why you're wrong (pound-for-pound != strength-for-strength; if you adjusted for body-fat percentage then it might be an interesting question), but all else aside, the data does exist. It's not as though women have never competed against men in wrestling. Because of Title IX, and a dearth of women's wrestling programs, women have frequently wrestled in the "men's" wrestling program, especially in high school. In high school wrestling, especially at lower weight classes, girls have had some success; there was even one who won the Alaska state championship (for her weight class) a few years ago. However, at 103 pounds, most boys of that weight have probably not finished going through puberty. Perhaps it is hard to judge who does better overall at low weight classes in high school because of the disparity in numbers; although boys win nearly all of the titles, there are also far more boys competing in high school wrestling than girls. In any case, once you start talking about fully grown men and women, there is no longer any question. Women are allowed to compete against men in college as well, if there is no women's wrestling program; that rarely happens, simply because they don't have the strength to compete. I remember reading about one exception to the rule: Patricia Miranda. She wrestled throughout her college career, losing every match she started in. Finally she picked up a single victory, which was considered extremely impressive, since it was only the second time a woman had beaten a man in NCAA history. She then went on to get a bronze medal in the Olympics. You're citing anecdotal experience saying "so and so girl sucked", and totally ignoring the social differences between the ways men and women are raised. Yes, a girl with a year or two of experience who hasn't been working out for very long is going to get destroyed. Even with the same muscle mass, most female wrestlers would still do poorly because they're not technically as good. That still doesn't mean anything about their physical potential. The post about Tossgirl as a fair analogy, or any girl gaming for that matter. Men have no biological advantage when it comes to gaming, yet the best female gamers can't come close to the best male gamers. That's a result of social influences, and the same still applies to most sports. Look at Nick Mangold's little sister that's benching like 300 and playing offensive line. She's got incredible physical strength and an incredible amount of leverage from her feminine features. | ||
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ForSC2
United States580 Posts
On September 12 2009 07:16 integral wrote: Of course genius is made, not born, but tiny differences in genetic ability will compound over the thousands and thousands of hours of work ALL chess grandmasters put into studying the game. The sample size for women is so much smaller in ALL competitive events, so statistically speaking the quantity disparity (only one woman in top 100) proves nothing. I personally theorize that if the sample sizes were the same, there would still be significantly more male outliers, but that's not falsifiable and thus pure conjecture. If women were unable to achieve grandmaster level play it'd be a different story, but there is enough gender parity for the differences to be negligible or inconclusive. Aside from the gender disparity why would you feel might be why few women have been able to really compete in Starcraft? Starcraft itself and chess are interesting mainly because there are not as many obvious factors like how much muscle they have. All of your pieces are made to be equivalent to your opponent, so I feel it makes an attempt to cut out as many external factors as possible has been made to create a true competitive environment. Of course there are factors. Gender disparity, lack of interest. I read an interview on Susan Polgar and she mentioned there were times when she had menstrual cramps which made it harder to concentrate during a three hour game. I'm wondering if there is a main factor where if all else was equal would still cause greatly uneven numbers. Like the how much of a factor is testosterone itself for example. | ||
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ForSC2
United States580 Posts
I can pretty much get my forearms to elbows to touch sticking them straight out. This is actually easier if my arms are completely straight. When I bend them slightly I don't think I can do it anymore. | ||
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