The IdrA Fan Club - Page 29

theres massive potential in zerg. mutas can be great, they are microable and unlimited selection makes up for the less than perfect stacking. banelings are very unique and powerful. infestors are good, could be awesome if neural were still useful. even the basic units, roaches have burrow move and hp regen, hydras emphasize how valuable creep is and introduce decision making based around that, zerglings incredible speed. "easiest" mass transport options. broodlords introduce positioning and siege tactics.

all the tools are there, its just some key ones arent strong enough, or zerg's shit early game makes it seem that way.

not really, zvt vs bio you can fight straight up and vs mech they arent going to be attacking anyway. the problem zvt is the early game, the number of options terran has and the difficulty zerg has in dealing with them, and the ineffectiveness of early/mid game air vs pure mech. its too easy to nullify mutas, lets terran focus on tanks and you arent supposed to be able to beat tanks on the ground.

i think the early game changes from the phase 2 patch should be brought back, zealot reaper barracks bunker build times up 5 seconds. they should also do one or both of 1.5 supply roach and tanks w/o smart fire, depending on how good tanks are in tvp.
with the current reaper bunker timings its literally impossible to expand before speedling or roach if they go reaper, fix that and it should be possible to deal with early terran bullshit. a massable roach or a less powerful tank would help with mech.

but right now theyre in a really bad situation with tvz because if they fix the early game theyre gonna have to make big changes to banelings, unless theyre happy with tvz turning into pure boring mech games. because the only reason bio builds are still seeing use is that terran usually enters midgame with an advantage, and the strength of tanks kind of makes up for it, ling/baneling is prohibitively strong vs bio.

well the maps certainly dont help but its not the biggest issue with zvt

if you fix the early game the mid game problems will largely go away. if you're willing to risk hatchery first expansion and you get away with it you can fight in the mid game on an even footing, the problem is its so incredibly risky to try to set up a solid economy early.

no amount of creativity is gonna get a zergling past a wallin or an overlord past a marine
zergs midgame army seems very weak, its possible creativity can find a way around that, although when newbies hear the word creativity they picture nydus worms popping up in 2 places at once, which isnt going to be an answer to anything.
but the early game problems with zvt are not going to go away.

cuz in the korean tournaments reapers get abused plenty and every game won by a non korean terran is based off one of the various 1 base allins, and the threat of reapers is what makes those so powerful because you have to play overly safe early meaning you dont have the economy to support any kind of flexible defense.

the problem is not that terran is particularly strong mid/late game, pure mech is but very few people use it for whatever reason, its the strength of all the possible openings. ya mutas are fine vs vikings, but not when you lose a queen, a bunch of overlords, drones, and mining time early. tlo was even letting him get away with hatch first expand, which should never happen.

the thing with is vs terran you literally cant play safe, if they wall and leave marines on the edge of their base they can do any number of strategies, all of which have completely different counters.

obviously i cared and did everything i could to win, terran is just utterly ridiculous right now.

it is not a fluke. it is a result of the fact that terran has a million viable rushes that have completely different counters and cannot be scouted, and they have a perfectly solid mid/late game to fall back on that you have to be aware of too. means you cant just cut econ to defend everything, if that were even possible, cuz then theyd run you over mid game.

zerg must play responsively early game, only aggressive options are terrible allins that are easily prevented and its clear theyre coming before the scv scout is even dead. terran has 20 completely different viable 1 base builds, all of which can kill you if you arent properly prepared. that in itself isnt imbalanced, but when they all require different counters and theres no reliable way to know which hes doing, it is a problem.

like i said its not solely that they have too many options, its that they have alot of options and its not really possible to know what theyre doing, and there is no all purpose defensive build. and its not just that zergs havent thought of one, terran strategies require such diverse counters that you're never gonna be able to be totally safe.

as for zerg aggression no, i dont think its gonna happen unless theres big changes. wallin+repair+bunkers and terran's range advantage means that you're never just gonna be able to overpower them cuz of a build advantage or something, you actually have to catch them completely off guard. and roach or baneling based rushes are not hard to scout, have similar responses anyway. basically if t sees you on one base, which you cant prevent, they make a thick wall and put a bunker behind it and theyre completely safe. the fact that you're on one base means that even with that extra money spent on defense theyll be fine economically. only options zerg has are map specific, like blistering's back door.

they need to start by bringing back the phase 2 build time changes, reaper barracks zealot +5 seconds and the bunker back to 40 or w/e it was. those should have pretty significant effects so while other stuff may be needed we have to see what happens when that is changed first, because zergs early game 100% needs help.

mech is overpowered mid/late game but thats not an argument worth having right now because theres no terran players skilled enough to make the imbalance apparent at top levels, so any claims will just get shot down. it'll come up a few months down the road.

look at the difference between tester and every other protoss player
then realize no one near tester's caliber plays terran
then consider that 90% of the top tier rts players playing sc2 right now chose zerg

if the game were balanced zerg would be winning 70%+ at high levels.

i really wish people would stop making claims like that when they arent actually involved in the korean scene.
ya zerg is reasonably well represented, but the zergs are people like me, junwi, cool, check whereas the terrans are 'ogsgon' 'simpsonprime' 'ogstop'. and if you watch them play or play against them they arent actually good. their macro falls apart at the drop of a hat, they dont micro beyond reaper kiting, they are unskilled nobodies winning purely on the strength of their race. were there any terran players of equivalent skill to the zerg players they would be going undefeated. as is thestc is the only pro sc1 terran taking it seriously i think, and for some reason or another he sucks. and he still won the big phase2 gom tournament.
its the same situation on the us server, ya some zergs and a protoss can compete, but theyre mostly players who were already known, who are actually good at rts' and in most cases were good at sc1. and then you have random bad players, and lots of them, different ones every week, shooting up the ladder and placing in every tournament with terran.

stupid people will argue that they arent unskilled just because they were unknown (and thats not my argument, theyre unskilled because theyre bad, but you people dont seem to understand that), but if thats the case how come theres almost no one previously unknown having similar success with z/p? there are a few, like huk, and while hes not particularly good hes shown consistent results across multiple patches. unlike the tens of terrans who've popped up since the beginning of phase 2.

dunno how it can be any more obvious that theres something seriously wrong.

there are no good terrans but terran has still been dominant. up until the slush/sheth finals all of the gosucoaching/iem/zotac/esl type cups since phase2 had been won by terrans, vast majority of the top 4's were terrans. a terran, thestc, who is actually quite bad, won the gom individual tournament held during phase. thestc/ensnare, 2 terrans, were the finalists in the korean tournament hosted by garimto a couple days ago.

and, as i said, all those terrans getting placing in foreigner tournaments, its different ones every week. if you look at zerg and protoss results, a very small number of people who were already known to be good sc1 or war3 players are responsible for almost everything. but with terran thereve been a lot of different unknown or flat out bad players who recently started placing in tournaments. because its the race thats responsible for the results, not the players.

oh and the gom team league during phase2, ogs had ensnare up. he beats 2 z's basically with just reapers and prime gives up and sends out 3 mediocre terrans for the rest of the matches, despite having people like anypro and junwi sitting on the bench.

every tournament since the start of phase 2 besides king of the beta, 1 gosucoaching, and 1 esl have been won by terrans. terrans are dominating in korean tournaments, won every one and took most of the highest places. something like 70-80% of the top 4's in foreigner tournaments have been terrans, half of them have had top 2 terran. recent tournament results are one of the biggest arguments for terran being overpowered.

cool is playing almost 100% random on ladder, check is starting to play some protoss because "zerg cant win vs protoss" and every other korean zerg thinks its just as bullshit as the foreigners do.
korean zergs are barely any more represented in the highest ranks than foreigners, half the time the top 10 is 7 terrans 2 protosses and whichever 1 of 5 zergs happened to hit a win streak recently.

a slow expensive upgrade and then 150 gas units for a spell that lasts 9 seconds when he has plenty of support units. to counter what he did you have to commit to roaches from the start, but his build looked like a tank heavy tank/marine push as he stayed in one base, had a fac with tech lab, and was making marines pretty consistently without a reactor. if you go roach vs that you die. and he had marines on his perimeter, his armory was in the back of his base. by the time it was physically possible to scout what he was doing it was too late to counter it.

lack of hellion+tech lab upgrade does not point to cliffing, it could just as well mean a straight fac unit push or a sneaky blue hellion drop, and if you get ovie lift vs those you lose. mutas do not get out in time to save the hatchery, and you're then on one base muta while he already has access to thor.
it can be countered by getting a 200 gas upgrade immediately when your lair finishes. of course if you do that then you lose to any of the tens of other builds he could be doing, that look exactly the same in all of the information you are capable of getting up to that point.