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United States97277 Posts
On October 29 2017 10:55 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 10:09 Hyperbola wrote:On October 29 2017 00:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
Not that I'm questioning oda or anything, but all this fruit/haki level 2 business does not exactly reek of forethought.
For nearly everything else oda foreshadows elsewhere in the Manga, but we've never heard/see anything about 'awakening' or haki level 2 before this point, despite there being plenty of people showcased before this point that should be capable of such (whitebeard captains/admirals/etc).
This seems like an afterthought /naruto/dbz style powerup which doesn't sit well with me coming from oda. Remember how Crocodile could turn things around him into sand? That was what, chapter 200-something? That's just him sucking the moisture out of things with his hand. Not awakening. The first users with awakening we saw in the series afaik were the Mino-bunch in Impel Down.
I've seen people try to argue that croco was awakened but yeah the first time it was explicitly mentioned was in impel down. Said the awakened zoan had even more strength and accelerated recovery time
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Crocodile was also the person to first bring up awakening. I would not be surprised if his fruit were awoken.
awake?
awakened?
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On October 29 2017 10:59 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 10:55 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 29 2017 10:09 Hyperbola wrote:On October 29 2017 00:55 WaveofShadow wrote:
Not that I'm questioning oda or anything, but all this fruit/haki level 2 business does not exactly reek of forethought.
For nearly everything else oda foreshadows elsewhere in the Manga, but we've never heard/see anything about 'awakening' or haki level 2 before this point, despite there being plenty of people showcased before this point that should be capable of such (whitebeard captains/admirals/etc).
This seems like an afterthought /naruto/dbz style powerup which doesn't sit well with me coming from oda. Remember how Crocodile could turn things around him into sand? That was what, chapter 200-something? That's just him sucking the moisture out of things with his hand. Not awakening. The first users with awakening we saw in the series afaik were the Mino-bunch in Impel Down. I've seen people try to argue that croco was awakened but yeah the first time it was explicitly mentioned was in impel down. Said the awakened zoan had even more strength and accelerated recovery time
Yeah, but the explanation doesn't hold up. It's explicitly stated that his hand absorbs moisture, and can cause living things to wither and dry out, and turn dirt and stone to sand. The awakening we have seen doesn't work like that.
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or we can just say that he was retroactively an awakened devil fruit user like shanks was someone who used haki retroactively before the concept was created.
there are clear distinctions between foreshadowing and elements that are expanded upon later by the author;
enel and apis possessed haki, but it was labeled as mantra and only referenced later once the concept was labeled and conceived years later; enel did not kill luffy or inflict direct damage like garp did
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On October 28 2017 23:14 Hussambani1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 18:25 Makro wrote:On October 28 2017 16:58 Hussambani1 wrote:
When Luffy and Katakuri's fists hit eachother you can see that luffys hands gets hurt, and then Katakuri mentions that there are things that surpass armament. What do you guys think he meant by that? like enel has a different form of haki observation, there is many advanced form of hakis in the one piece world based on armament and observation - katakuri has developped one of them - imo he means that his armament haki is so advanced that it "surpass" the basic armament haki For me it sounds like he talking about something different than just advanced armament. Not sure what tho. If it was luffys armament not being strong enough or not developed enough why wouldn't he say that insted of saying "there are things that surpass armament? Maybe it has something to do with awakened fruits. In chapter 785 doflamingo mentions to luffy that once your fruit awakens, it does not only effect surroundings but also the body.
I wouldn't read too deeply into the translation. They crank these out for speed, not accuracy.
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On October 28 2017 18:25 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 16:58 Hussambani1 wrote:
When Luffy and Katakuri's fists hit eachother you can see that luffys hands gets hurt, and then Katakuri mentions that there are things that surpass armament. What do you guys think he meant by that? like enel has a different form of haki observation, there is many advanced form of hakis in the one piece world based on armament and observation - katakuri has developped one of them - imo he means that his armament haki is so advanced that it "surpass" the basic armament haki
So he has armament haki beyond the level of armament haki
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Awakened fruits and next levels of Haki. damned.
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On October 30 2017 00:54 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 23:14 Hussambani1 wrote:On October 28 2017 18:25 Makro wrote:On October 28 2017 16:58 Hussambani1 wrote:
When Luffy and Katakuri's fists hit eachother you can see that luffys hands gets hurt, and then Katakuri mentions that there are things that surpass armament. What do you guys think he meant by that? like enel has a different form of haki observation, there is many advanced form of hakis in the one piece world based on armament and observation - katakuri has developped one of them - imo he means that his armament haki is so advanced that it "surpass" the basic armament haki For me it sounds like he talking about something different than just advanced armament. Not sure what tho. If it was luffys armament not being strong enough or not developed enough why wouldn't he say that insted of saying "there are things that surpass armament? Maybe it has something to do with awakened fruits. In chapter 785 doflamingo mentions to luffy that once your fruit awakens, it does not only effect surroundings but also the body. I wouldn't read too deeply into the translation. They crank these out for speed, not accuracy.
translation i read he just saids his armament is stronger then luffys
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On October 30 2017 09:59 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 18:25 Makro wrote:On October 28 2017 16:58 Hussambani1 wrote:
When Luffy and Katakuri's fists hit eachother you can see that luffys hands gets hurt, and then Katakuri mentions that there are things that surpass armament. What do you guys think he meant by that? like enel has a different form of haki observation, there is many advanced form of hakis in the one piece world based on armament and observation - katakuri has developped one of them - imo he means that his armament haki is so advanced that it "surpass" the basic armament haki So he has armament haki beyond the level of armament haki
yes :>
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I kinda still hope that Luffy won't beat Kata, at least a draw
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On October 29 2017 12:27 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
or we can just say that he was retroactively an awakened devil fruit user like shanks was someone who used haki retroactively before the concept was created.
there are clear distinctions between foreshadowing and elements that are expanded upon later by the author;
enel and apis possessed haki, but it was labeled as mantra and only referenced later once the concept was labeled and conceived years later; enel did not kill luffy or inflict direct damage like garp did
Agree 100%. This is how Oda (and most other authors) write. He puts down a bunch of material in the beginning and then expands later. The crazy foreshadowing that he is known for works retroactively most of the time. For example: in that blurb about the sakura and dum kingdom, Oda got an idea that pink snow looks like cherry blossoms when it's above the mesas - and Chopper just so happened to have cherry blossom shaped hooves and Dr. Kureha wore a cherry blossom shirt. So the foreshadowing worked backwards. Same with croc - he was able to turn things into sand by absorbing the moisture and then hey other devil fruit users could start to extend their powers into the objects around them and now it's called awakening and Croc is awakened too.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On October 31 2017 05:55 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 12:27 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
or we can just say that he was retroactively an awakened devil fruit user like shanks was someone who used haki retroactively before the concept was created.
there are clear distinctions between foreshadowing and elements that are expanded upon later by the author;
enel and apis possessed haki, but it was labeled as mantra and only referenced later once the concept was labeled and conceived years later; enel did not kill luffy or inflict direct damage like garp did Agree 100%. This is how Oda (and most other authors) write. He puts down a bunch of material in the beginning and then expands later. The crazy foreshadowing that he is known for works retroactively most of the time. For example: in that blurb about the sakura and dum kingdom, Oda got an idea that pink snow looks like cherry blossoms when it's above the mesas - and Chopper just so happened to have cherry blossom shaped hooves and Dr. Kureha wore a cherry blossom shirt. So the foreshadowing worked backwards. Same with croc - he was able to turn things into sand by absorbing the moisture and then hey other devil fruit users could start to extend their powers into the objects around them and now it's called awakening and Croc is awakened too.
Except that would be poor retroactive foreshadowing, since drying out people or plants doesn't fit into awakening, and 'hand' abilities don't either, which is why I don't think Oda'll label this ability as awakening.
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On October 31 2017 05:55 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 12:27 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
or we can just say that he was retroactively an awakened devil fruit user like shanks was someone who used haki retroactively before the concept was created.
there are clear distinctions between foreshadowing and elements that are expanded upon later by the author;
enel and apis possessed haki, but it was labeled as mantra and only referenced later once the concept was labeled and conceived years later; enel did not kill luffy or inflict direct damage like garp did Agree 100%. This is how Oda (and most other authors) write. He puts down a bunch of material in the beginning and then expands later. The crazy foreshadowing that he is known for works retroactively most of the time. For example: in that blurb about the sakura and dum kingdom, Oda got an idea that pink snow looks like cherry blossoms when it's above the mesas - and Chopper just so happened to have cherry blossom shaped hooves and Dr. Kureha wore a cherry blossom shirt. So the foreshadowing worked backwards. Same with croc - he was able to turn things into sand by absorbing the moisture and then hey other devil fruit users could start to extend their powers into the objects around them and now it's called awakening and Croc is awakened too.
the main thing about there awakened is controlling the surrounding, croc didnt control the sand he made at all, and he dehydrated Luffys sandals too
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whether crocodile is awakened or not is unimportant
that being said, he was locked up in impel down after alabasta, and had no contact with the outside world in his cell. he identified in impel down the awakened zoan users.
crocodile has been shown to be the most interested in devil fruit abilities and how they can be utilized; when magellan and mr 3 briefly interacted he was fascinated by the wax nullifying poison. he also is prideful of the fact that he has mastered his devil fruit.
it wouldn't be a stretch to say that his abilities portrayed more than ten real life years ago were retroactively awakened ones, even if it's a slight retcon, imo.
On October 31 2017 06:30 Forikorder wrote:
the main thing about there awakened is controlling the surrounding, croc didnt control the sand he made at all, and he dehydrated Luffys sandals too
when luffy fights crocodile for the first time in the desert, crocodile exclaims that he has the ultimate advantage in the desert. while you could argue that this is mostly due to the lack of moisture, would it be so wrong to say that having the sand sand fruit could enable you to control sand that you do not generate?
on an unrelated note, i would imagine that if we see crocodile post-timeskip in combat, it wouldn't be difficult for him to create sand and attack with it like gaara fighting kimimaro in naruto.
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when luffy fights crocodile for the first time in the desert, crocodile exclaims that he has the ultimate advantage in the desert. while you could argue that this is mostly due to the lack of moisture, would it be so wrong to say that having the sand sand fruit could enable you to control sand that you do not generate?
he was reffering to things like the giant sand tornado and pitfall he made, he never demonstrates any ability to manipulate sand, even the tornado was only made through knowledge of the surrounding weather patterns
plus paramecia and logias probably awaken in different ways like how paramecia and zoans do, the awakening of a logia could be how admirals evaded haki attacks without injury
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On October 31 2017 08:32 Forikorder wrote:
he was reffering to things like the giant sand tornado and pitfall he made, he never demonstrates any ability to manipulate sand
oh...
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Crocodile was the causing the tornadoes. After he went down, the town that kept getting buried by sand went back to normal.
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Theres also the theory that it was Crocodile who was causing the drought in the whole country, other than in Yuba. That he was basically using his powers to drain the moisture from the air. Its not an air-tight theory, since we do know that Dance Powder was discovered to be in use at least some, but we don't know the extent, and its very curious that almost immediately when Crocodile was defeated, it started raining across the entire country for the first time in years.
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That could be, it would mean Smoker wasn't lying about not using the Dance Powder when he was talking to Hina.
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On October 31 2017 22:27 Sentenal wrote:
Theres also the theory that it was Crocodile who was causing the drought in the whole country, other than in Yuba. That he was basically using his powers to drain the moisture from the air. Its not an air-tight theory, since we do know that Dance Powder was discovered to be in use at least some, but we don't know the extent, and its very curious that almost immediately when Crocodile was defeated, it started raining across the entire country for the first time in years.
but we know he was using dance powder, the rain was just a coincidence
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EPT
