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On January 27 2014 03:33 Baggage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 18:03 Kazzoo wrote:
Genuine question that may sound like a QQ but isn't :
What can I do as a support to not be in this position 25-30 minutes into the game of simply praying that my carries will do their job correctly. Appart from trying to make their farm easier, how can impact the game when I'm a poor and underleveled CM ? Make things happen. When you're doing well go pick up that midas. If you cant afford a midas on cm then you didnt do as well as you could've. Do note that when you get a midas on cm you should still be buying wards/detection/smoke/upgraded courier/stuff your team needs. I generally get like tranqs, wand, urn before transitioning into a midas. The idea is that you should just notice "oh I have like 1.9k gold and I'm close to a midas", and not naked midas rush like a carry. Generally you can get the midas at the 18-20 minute mark and you're doing ok.
Maybe explain a bit further. I thought a midas needs approx 18 minutes to be costeffective, so you should start to gain a goldadvantage after 40 minutes if you get the midas at 20 minutes. But because you greed away your build up advantage to gain an advantage after 40 minutes? Why not just opt to aggro further and participate more in fights with stuff earlier?
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On January 27 2014 05:19 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 03:33 Baggage wrote:On January 26 2014 18:03 Kazzoo wrote:
Genuine question that may sound like a QQ but isn't :
What can I do as a support to not be in this position 25-30 minutes into the game of simply praying that my carries will do their job correctly. Appart from trying to make their farm easier, how can impact the game when I'm a poor and underleveled CM ? Make things happen. When you're doing well go pick up that midas. If you cant afford a midas on cm then you didnt do as well as you could've. Do note that when you get a midas on cm you should still be buying wards/detection/smoke/upgraded courier/stuff your team needs. I generally get like tranqs, wand, urn before transitioning into a midas. The idea is that you should just notice "oh I have like 1.9k gold and I'm close to a midas", and not naked midas rush like a carry. Generally you can get the midas at the 18-20 minute mark and you're doing ok. Maybe explain a bit further. I thought a midas needs approx 18 minutes to be costeffective, so you should start to gain a goldadvantage after 40 minutes if you get the midas at 20 minutes. But because you greed away your build up advantage to gain an advantage after 40 minutes? Why not just opt to aggro further and participate more in fights with stuff earlier?
A big deal with midas is the levels, a lot of supports have a really hard time getting level 16 in a timely manner, with midas it's a breeze. lvl 3 cm ulti is bonkers
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On January 27 2014 05:06 Verror wrote:
Why do a lot of people consider phase on Invoker bad? (or at least a waste of money), seems like a pretty reasonable choice to me.
No one really considers Phase to be bad on Invoker; they just consider that Treads are situationally stronger. Which is true, since it gives you better dps if your team is relying on you to deal physical damage thanks to the attack speed. That said Phase is still very strong for the stronger laning as well as the mobility it provides. I personally go Phase on him in all my games.
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On January 27 2014 05:06 Verror wrote:
Why do a lot of people consider phase on Invoker bad? (or at least a waste of money), seems like a pretty reasonable choice to me.
Because fast boots of travel or treads are considered better. Bots if game is good, treads if game is bad. Phase feel redundant because your 3rd big item (midas/force being 1 and 2) is usually another mobility / ganking item like euls or blink before agha. Getting a faster agha is usually pointless because you don't have the mana to support it.
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On January 27 2014 04:11 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 03:29 hooahah wrote:
why do mid heroes such as Invoker, Storm etc buy a Null Talisman with their starting money? wouldn't it be better to buy a circlet + gg branches? Because they are bad. Circlet + branches are indeed better than a null/bracer/wraith recipe.
? How can you say that they're "bad"? As Qbek said, a null gives 9 damage. That's what these mids are looking for when they buy a null. +9 damage if your opponent has gone for something standard like the 3branch tango build often means you can completely dominate the lane in terms of last hits and denies with your higher base damage on a hero like puck or storm. Invokers build the null to start less often as they can often just go blades of attack -> phase boots for the damage, but if they feel they need some extra stats to shore up their HP instead of just raw damage, they might do it too.
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On January 27 2014 05:22 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 05:19 govie wrote:On January 27 2014 03:33 Baggage wrote:On January 26 2014 18:03 Kazzoo wrote:
Genuine question that may sound like a QQ but isn't :
What can I do as a support to not be in this position 25-30 minutes into the game of simply praying that my carries will do their job correctly. Appart from trying to make their farm easier, how can impact the game when I'm a poor and underleveled CM ? Make things happen. When you're doing well go pick up that midas. If you cant afford a midas on cm then you didnt do as well as you could've. Do note that when you get a midas on cm you should still be buying wards/detection/smoke/upgraded courier/stuff your team needs. I generally get like tranqs, wand, urn before transitioning into a midas. The idea is that you should just notice "oh I have like 1.9k gold and I'm close to a midas", and not naked midas rush like a carry. Generally you can get the midas at the 18-20 minute mark and you're doing ok. Maybe explain a bit further. I thought a midas needs approx 18 minutes to be costeffective, so you should start to gain a goldadvantage after 40 minutes if you get the midas at 20 minutes. But because you greed away your build up advantage to gain an advantage after 40 minutes? Why not just opt to aggro further and participate more in fights with stuff earlier? A big deal with midas is the levels, a lot of supports have a really hard time getting level 16 in a timely manner, with midas it's a breeze. lvl 3 cm ulti is bonkers
also that sweet, sweet reliable gold
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On January 27 2014 05:19 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 03:33 Baggage wrote:On January 26 2014 18:03 Kazzoo wrote:
Genuine question that may sound like a QQ but isn't :
What can I do as a support to not be in this position 25-30 minutes into the game of simply praying that my carries will do their job correctly. Appart from trying to make their farm easier, how can impact the game when I'm a poor and underleveled CM ? Make things happen. When you're doing well go pick up that midas. If you cant afford a midas on cm then you didnt do as well as you could've. Do note that when you get a midas on cm you should still be buying wards/detection/smoke/upgraded courier/stuff your team needs. I generally get like tranqs, wand, urn before transitioning into a midas. The idea is that you should just notice "oh I have like 1.9k gold and I'm close to a midas", and not naked midas rush like a carry. Generally you can get the midas at the 18-20 minute mark and you're doing ok. Maybe explain a bit further. I thought a midas needs approx 18 minutes to be costeffective, so you should start to gain a goldadvantage after 40 minutes if you get the midas at 20 minutes. But because you greed away your build up advantage to gain an advantage after 40 minutes? Why not just opt to aggro further and participate more in fights with stuff earlier?
His question was how to be useful without depending on his carry at the twenty to forty minutes. Generally the more items exp and gold u have the later the game goes the more useful u'll be. Best way to support a carry is by carrying in pubs. Also Midas pays for itself after ten to eleven minutes cuz u can sell it.
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On January 27 2014 06:54 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 04:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On January 27 2014 03:29 hooahah wrote:
why do mid heroes such as Invoker, Storm etc buy a Null Talisman with their starting money? wouldn't it be better to buy a circlet + gg branches? Because they are bad. Circlet + branches are indeed better than a null/bracer/wraith recipe. ? How can you say that they're "bad"? As Qbek said, a null gives 9 damage. That's what these mids are looking for when they buy a null. +9 damage if your opponent has gone for something standard like the 3branch tango build often means you can completely dominate the lane in terms of last hits and denies with your higher base damage on a hero like puck or storm. Invokers build the null to start less often as they can often just go blades of attack -> phase boots for the damage, but if they feel they need some extra stats to shore up their HP instead of just raw damage, they might do it too.
Buying the recipe at level 1 was always an easy way to tell your opponent is bad because he does not know how to spend his gold properly. If you only want the raw stat/damage you're better off buying more components, although bracer, wraith and null now get different recipe prices and 3 bonus damage as well.
In the end it comes down whether you prefer the minimal plus damage null gives instead of getting other items like boots or bottle faster, or you consolidate the circlet and mantle only when your inventory reaches 6 slots.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On January 27 2014 06:32 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 05:06 Verror wrote:
Why do a lot of people consider phase on Invoker bad? (or at least a waste of money), seems like a pretty reasonable choice to me. Because fast boots of travel or treads are considered better. Bots if game is good, treads if game is bad. Phase feel redundant because your 3rd big item (midas/force being 1 and 2) is usually another mobility / ganking item like euls or blink before agha. Getting a faster agha is usually pointless because you don't have the mana to support it.
Fast BoTs are kinda meh unless you're H4nn1, and even then people question him for it. If you've got a good start you should go for a fast Midas rather than Travels. If you're still considering Travels after Midas then you've invested 4050 gold in both Midas and Travels, neither of which give you anything for actual fights.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 27 2014 06:54 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 04:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On January 27 2014 03:29 hooahah wrote:
why do mid heroes such as Invoker, Storm etc buy a Null Talisman with their starting money? wouldn't it be better to buy a circlet + gg branches? Because they are bad. Circlet + branches are indeed better than a null/bracer/wraith recipe. ? How can you say that they're "bad"? As Qbek said, a null gives 9 damage. That's what these mids are looking for when they buy a null. +9 damage if your opponent has gone for something standard like the 3branch tango build often means you can completely dominate the lane in terms of last hits and denies with your higher base damage on a hero like puck or storm. Invokers build the null to start less often as they can often just go blades of attack -> phase boots for the damage, but if they feel they need some extra stats to shore up their HP instead of just raw damage, they might do it too.
As one of my friends usually say - "why do you need to buy stuff which you won't use later?"
Null talisman have 2 upgrades since previous patch - dagon and veil.
Getting dagon on Invoker is pretty stupid.
Getting veil too.
And buying it just for 9 damage is ridiculous because if you're playing exort Invoker, you will have those 9 damage at first level without spending 370 gold into nowhere.
On January 27 2014 08:29 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 06:32 idonthinksobro wrote:On January 27 2014 05:06 Verror wrote:
Why do a lot of people consider phase on Invoker bad? (or at least a waste of money), seems like a pretty reasonable choice to me. Because fast boots of travel or treads are considered better. Bots if game is good, treads if game is bad. Phase feel redundant because your 3rd big item (midas/force being 1 and 2) is usually another mobility / ganking item like euls or blink before agha. Getting a faster agha is usually pointless because you don't have the mana to support it. Fast BoTs are kinda meh unless you're H4nn1, and even then people question him for it. If you've got a good start you should go for a fast Midas rather than Travels. If you're still considering Travels after Midas then you've invested 4050 gold in both Midas and Travels, neither of which give you anything for actual fights.
Boots of Travel = 2500 gold.
So, it's 18 tp scrolls which is same to 19,5 minutes of game time.
H4nn1 usually gets midas first and travels after it and standard timing for him is kinda like 12-14 minutes.
Basically, if game is longer than 31-33 minutes, which is very often case, it's pretty decent especially with forge spirits build which provides tons of splitpush ability.
And Invoker doesn't scale very much with items, so he's very self-sufficient.
His peak is probably hex/scepter which happen if you get midas and play like H4nn1, who prefers travels and hex to other items in mid, at 35-40 minutes mark and game usually end after it so this travels's purchase doesn't really affect him.
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On January 27 2014 08:29 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 06:32 idonthinksobro wrote:On January 27 2014 05:06 Verror wrote:
Why do a lot of people consider phase on Invoker bad? (or at least a waste of money), seems like a pretty reasonable choice to me. Because fast boots of travel or treads are considered better. Bots if game is good, treads if game is bad. Phase feel redundant because your 3rd big item (midas/force being 1 and 2) is usually another mobility / ganking item like euls or blink before agha. Getting a faster agha is usually pointless because you don't have the mana to support it. Fast BoTs are kinda meh unless you're H4nn1, and even then people question him for it. If you've got a good start you should go for a fast Midas rather than Travels. If you're still considering Travels after Midas then you've invested 4050 gold in both Midas and Travels, neither of which give you anything for actual fights.
so what is your go to 3rd big item?
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Would you consider Ring of Basilius + Tango for Invoker? 6 damage and 3 armor helps with last hits and survivability and you can get the Sobi back to make Euls or Orchid if you're H4nn1 plus stronger push potential.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 27 2014 11:47 Resisty wrote:
Would you consider Ring of Basilius + Tango for Invoker? 6 damage and 3 armor helps with last hits and survivability and you can get the Sobi back to make Euls or Orchid if you're H4nn1 plus stronger push potential.
Fine for sidelane, RoB mid is generally awkward because the need for the aura is far less.
On January 27 2014 04:11 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 03:29 hooahah wrote:
why do mid heroes such as Invoker, Storm etc buy a Null Talisman with their starting money? wouldn't it be better to buy a circlet + gg branches? Because they are bad. Circlet + branches are indeed better than a null/bracer/wraith recipe.
In competitive games, mids start with Null Talisman because they get pooled regen to fill their remaining slots. You need to have free item slots if you want to get pooled.
In pub games, either they have random gold (in which case, you can still have regen so you can start Null/Wraith/Bracer) or they're skimping on regen. Skimping on regen is extremely greedy and can be punished by a team that knows what they are doing.
On January 27 2014 06:54 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 04:11 EtherealBlade wrote:On January 27 2014 03:29 hooahah wrote:
why do mid heroes such as Invoker, Storm etc buy a Null Talisman with their starting money? wouldn't it be better to buy a circlet + gg branches? Because they are bad. Circlet + branches are indeed better than a null/bracer/wraith recipe. ? How can you say that they're "bad"? As Qbek said, a null gives 9 damage. That's what these mids are looking for when they buy a null. +9 damage if your opponent has gone for something standard like the 3branch tango build often means you can completely dominate the lane in terms of last hits and denies with your higher base damage on a hero like puck or storm. Invokers build the null to start less often as they can often just go blades of attack -> phase boots for the damage, but if they feel they need some extra stats to shore up their HP instead of just raw damage, they might do it too.
3 Branch Tango goes into lane with the intent of stalemating, so being able to beat 3 Branch Tango is a poor argument. Any hero that starts 3 Branch Tango expects to lose the lane and only intends to try and Bottle Crow stalemate to begin with.
Starting with Wraith/Null/Bracer means you can only get one of either Tango or Salve unless you got random gold. If your lane opponent has both of these and you don't, they can trade regen aggressively at early levels to nullify your Stats advantage, forcing you to ferry regen and thereby negating the advantage you expected to get with the higher stats. The exception here is when mid gets pooled regen aggressively (which happens in competitive games)--getting 2-4 pooled Tangos negates the regen advantage of someone who started with something like Tango+Salve+3 Branch+Circlet, and that opponent can't also get pooled because those items take up all 6 slots.
There are some exceptions based on super lopsided matchups where the opponent basically can't fight back even when you have a regen disadvantage, but most people don't intentionally pick mid matchups that are that lopsided.
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What happens if you SoF into chrono sphere as ember?
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On January 27 2014 11:47 Resisty wrote:
Would you consider Ring of Basilius + Tango for Invoker? 6 damage and 3 armor helps with last hits and survivability and you can get the Sobi back to make Euls or Orchid if you're H4nn1 plus stronger push potential.
i see the RoB now and then, it's pretty good for your forge spirit. you can also use it to push the lane out in a way that invokers ordinarily are unable to do.
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why do people buy PMS?
my arguments against:
- it provides no upgrade to Stout Shield passive.
- it does not really increase survivability as it only gives <1 armor.
- for 150 more gold you can buy Band of Elvenskin to produce the same result and also reach treads quicker.
- it's generally the first item sold when inventory space becomes scarce so you get minimal time to reap its benefits.
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On January 27 2014 14:56 rredtooth wrote:
why do people buy PMS?
my arguments against:
- it provides no upgrade to Stout Shield passive.
- it does not really increase survivability as it only gives <1 armor.
- for 150 more gold you can buy Band of Elvenskin to produce the same result and also reach treads quicker.
- it's generally the first item sold when inventory space becomes scarce so you get minimal time to reap its benefits.
Poor Man's Shield gives you 100% block against hero auto-attack damage. Thus making it a cheap upgrade that lets you get considerably bulkier in the early game. Guaranteed 20 damage blocked is a lot in the laning stage when everyone has no items and no one really hits too hard with auto attacks.
By the time you sell it off, the damage block is inconsequential as enemy heroes' damage values grow higher and you are better off getting more armor if you want to bulk up.
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On January 27 2014 15:11 rebdomine wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 14:56 rredtooth wrote:
why do people buy PMS?
my arguments against:
- it provides no upgrade to Stout Shield passive.
- it does not really increase survivability as it only gives <1 armor.
- for 150 more gold you can buy Band of Elvenskin to produce the same result and also reach treads quicker.
- it's generally the first item sold when inventory space becomes scarce so you get minimal time to reap its benefits. Poor Man's Shield gives you 100% block against hero auto-attack damage. Thus making it a cheap upgrade that lets you get considerably bulkier in the early game. Guaranteed 20 damage blocked is a lot in the laning stage when everyone has no items and no one really hits too hard with auto attacks. By the time you sell it off, the damage block is inconsequential as enemy heroes' damage values grow higher and you are better off getting more armor if you want to bulk up.
This, poor man shield is a considerable upgrade from stout shield in a lane where you're being auto-attack harassed a lot. It is pretty much a must-have on any agility carry farming against a duo lane.
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EPT
