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On October 09 2013 23:52 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 23:14 Laserist wrote:On October 09 2013 22:48 TheSubtleArt wrote:On October 09 2013 22:37 Laserist wrote:
How would be Atos on Ursa? I admit it is theory craft and a little bit forced but; it gives hp and negates kiting. I don't mean a TI4 material but may good on pubs? Wouldn't do anything vs force staff or ghost scepter, and not as important as your core of blink / vlads / BKB. Better to just save up a bit more and go for a sheepstick imo (actually pretty legit on Ursa) Neither of BKB/vlad/blink don't nullify force or ghost, so this point is not valid. Are you really implying that you may want to build an Atos instead of Blink or BKB? On Ursa? Both items are proven to be versatile and for specific tasks(initiating and not getting stunned respectively) invaluable. While Vlads isn't invaluable, it enables a solo roshan kill as soon as you get it, which is definitely unique in the heropool now after lycan was nerfed.
I was not. And explained it later.
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On October 09 2013 23:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
Invoker/Enigma/TA/Troll/Lone Druid and more can all early-rosh solo. Most simply require a medallion and a few levels (5 to 10)
Enigma maybe, but he has a level requirement too.
Ursa could probably solo rosh at lvl 2 if he had a vlads that early. The other heroes need more than just 1 item, if only to have enough mana to keep casting spells. My point is entirely that ursa only needs 1 thing and nothing else.
Brb testing lvl 2 ursa roshing.
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Enigma can do it at level 3 (very fragile) or 5 (much simpler). Hows that "a level requirement"?
Sure invoker needs 10/11, but that can happen around ursa's vlads timing if your game is going well (maybe you need a midas too  ).
Troll needs lifesteal and levels but TA could do it with just bottle+medallion or similar I bet. Lone druid literally only needs medallion and level 6. Ursa is the fastest of them all I think but he's nowhere near "unique" in his rosh ability. The thing is in pro games the other team can figure out whats happening if these heroes disappear from the map and so pubs don't see it happen. In pubs, nobody is smart enough to just do this stuff.
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On October 10 2013 00:10 Sn0_Man wrote:Enigma can do it at level 3 (very fragile) or 5 (much simpler). Hows that "a level requirement"? Sure invoker needs 10/11, but that can happen around ursa's vlads timing if your game is going well (maybe you need a midas too ). Troll needs lifesteal and levels but TA could do it with just bottle+medallion or similar I bet. Lone druid literally only needs medallion and level 6. Ursa is the fastest of them all I think but he's nowhere near "unique" in his rosh ability. The thing is in pro games the other team can figure out whats happening if these heroes disappear from the map and so pubs don't see it happen. In pubs, nobody is smart enough to just do this stuff.
iirc invoker can do it at level 9 with a medallion and skipping a point in invoke.
Mega gimmicky, but funny.
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On October 10 2013 00:10 Sn0_Man wrote:Enigma can do it at level 3 (very fragile) or 5 (much simpler). Hows that "a level requirement"? Sure invoker needs 10/11, but that can happen around ursa's vlads timing if your game is going well (maybe you need a midas too ). Troll needs lifesteal and levels but TA could do it with just bottle+medallion or similar I bet. Lone druid literally only needs medallion and level 6. Ursa is the fastest of them all I think but he's nowhere near "unique" in his rosh ability. The thing is in pro games the other team can figure out whats happening if these heroes disappear from the map and so pubs don't see it happen. In pubs, nobody is smart enough to just do this stuff.
At Level 3 Enigma needs a number of clarity potions to keep his mana going. Or probably a soul ring.
I believe you could maybe pull off enigma, but I am really interested at how low of a level(and equipment) you can do it with Troll, TA and LD.
Care to show me?
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LD is 6 with a medallion. Go ult, swap aggro with bear, resummon if necessary.
TA requires some testing, but I'm guessing level 10 is "the level" assuming you aren't skipping 1 in psi blades 1 in trap. Items i'm not sure about but it really shouldn't require very much. Maybe just treads/phase.
Troll is harder and far more RNG based. This is like the only time you want extra fervour points early game, but its so useless outside of hitting rosh. Hypothetically with a fairly standard 1/3/1/1 level 6 build you could probably still get lucky and do it. However, your "kill rosh" abilities are Transform and Passive (and ult) so the more points in them the better. I don't know if your blind works on rosh or not. This one kinda requires a lot of testing too. However, troll being "off the map" isn't a concern to the enemy because they assume you are farming jungle (post 10 mins or so), so its very powerful.
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On October 09 2013 22:35 Rodberd wrote:
lycans howl and ulti affect all controlled creeps.
so he has his 2 wolves + necro3 (sometimes).
why not go dominator and get sth like an alpha to become sth like chens big evil brother?
I did the math (it may be a bit wrong, I believe I omitted something but forget what it was-- hero base damage maybe, but everything should be skewed by the same factor so the conclusions are fine anyway) to test whether necro3 lycan was actually viable or not relative to normal str carry items a while ago:
vlads treads necro3
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves + necrowarrior + necroarcher) = 1011
vlads treads necro3 dominator
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves + necrowarrior + necroarcher + alphawolf) = 1268
and for reference:
bfury treads manta
total dps (antimage + 2 manta ilus) = 410 (313 vs magic immune)
So yes, dominating an alpha wolf does give him a significant increase in damage output (even after howl's duration). The problem is that a bkb is probably more immediately impactful following necro3, and that basher is probably more impactful following that as well.
+ Show Spoiler [Lycan Math] +lycan bat 1.5 (ult) base str 22 level 11 str +30.25 base agl 16 lvl 20.9
lycan wolf bat 1.1 damage 43
lycan passive 30% damage 30 as
lycan howl 50 to hero 16 to unit
vlads 15% damage
alpha wolf creep bat 1.35 damage 30 aura damage 30%
necrowarrior bat 0.75 damage 75 manaburn 45
necroarcher bat 1.0 damage 120 aura as 9%
lycan vlads treads necro3 str 24 as 30 (5200 + 1400 + 2050 = 8650 gold)
damage = 84.25(base + lvl str + treads) + 84.25(.3(passive)+.15(vlads))+50(howl) = 172.16
as = 36.9(base + lvl agl) + 9(necroarcher) + 30(treads) + 30(passive) = 105.9
dps = 172.16(1+1.059)/1.5 = 235
damage lycan wolf = 43 + 43*(.3(passive) + .15(vlads)) + 16(howl) = 78.35
as lycan wolf = 30(passive) + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps lycan wolf = 78.35(1.30)/1.1 = 92*2 (99*2 with necroarcher aura)
damage necrowarrior = 75 + 75*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)) + 16(howl) + 45(manaburn) = 169.75
as necrowarrior = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necrowarrior = 167.75(1.39)/0.75 = 314
damage necroarcher = 120 + 120*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads) + 16(howl) = 190
as necroarcher = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necroarcher = 190(1.39)/1 = 264
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves + necrowarrior + necroarcher) = 1011
lycan vlads treads dominator necro3 (10500 gold)
damage = 84.25(str)+84.25(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha))+50(howl) +20(helm) = 217.44
as = 36.9(base + lvl agl) + 9(necroarcher) + 30(treads) + 30(passive) = 105.9
dps = 217.44(1+1.059)/1.5 = 298
damage lycan wolf = 43 + 43*(.3(passive) + .15(vlads) +.3(alpha)) + 16(howl) = 91.25
as lycan wolf = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps lycan wolf = 91.25(1.39)/1.1 = 115*2
damage necrowarrior = 75 + 75*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3) + 16(howl) + 45(mburn) = 192.25
as necrowarrior = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necrowarrior = 192.25(1.39)/0.75 = 356
damage necroarcher = 120 + 120*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha)) + 16(howl) = 226
as necroarcher = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necroarcher = 226(1.39)/1 = 314
damage alphawolf = 30 + 30*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha)) + 16(howl) = 68.5
as alphawolf = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps alphawolf = 68.5(1.39)/1.35 = 70
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves + necrowarrior + necroarcher + alphawolf) = 1268
lycan vlads treads bkb ac abyssal (2050 + 1400 + 3900 + 5350 + 6750 = 19450 gold)
str 22 + 30.25 + 28 damage 124 + 30% as 85 agl 36.9
damage = 80.25(total str) + 80.25*.3(vlads) + 124(bkb+abys) + 50(howl) = 278.32
as = 36.9(base+lvl agl) + 30(treads) + 55(ac) + 30(passive) = 151.9
dps = 278.32(1+1.519)/1.5 = 467
damage lycan wolf = 43 + 43*(.3(passive) + .15(vlads)) + 16(howl) = 78.35
as lycan wolf = 30(passive) + 20(ac) = 50
dps lycan wolf = 78.35(1.50)/1.1 = 106*2
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves) = 679
lycan vlads treads dominator necro3 (10500 gold) NO HOWL
damage = 84.25(str)+84.25(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha))+20(helm) = 167.44
as = 36.9(base + lvl agl) + 9(necroarcher) + 30(treads) + 30(passive) = 105.9
dps = 167.44(1+1.059)/1.5 = 229
damage lycan wolf = 43 + 43*(.3(passive) + .15(vlads) +.3(alpha)) + = 75.25
as lycan wolf = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps lycan wolf = 75.25(1.39)/1.1 = 95*2
damage necrowarrior = 75 + 75*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3) + 45(mburn) = 176.25
as necrowarrior = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necrowarrior = 176.25(1.39)/0.75 = 326
damage necroarcher = 120 + 120*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha)) = 210
as necroarcher = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps necroarcher = 210(1.39)/1 = 291
damage alphawolf = 30 + 30*(.3(passive)+.15(vlads)+.3(alpha)) = 52.5
as alphawolf = 30(passive + 9(necroarcher) = 39
dps alphawolf = 52.5(1.39)/1.35 = 54
total dps (lycan + 2 lycan wolves + necrowarrior + necroarcher + alphawolf) = 1090
I'm pretty sure I didn't factor the negative armour component of ac in the "normal" lycan build math or the mana burn active of necro-archer, but again that shouldn't effect the take-home message.
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Shoot me a PM if you really can solo rosh with enigma at level 3.
The others are just average. LD needs a resummon, which isn't impossible, but a long cooldown in a real game. Roshan solo at Level 10 with Medaillon and very specific skill build is exactly the kind of requirement that ursa doesn't have.
Ursa's requirements are much lower and that's a fact.
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Well ursa is forced into vlads which tbh isn't very good on him otherwise (Simply because he doesn't need the damage, can get the armor from a variety of sources as an AGI hero, the mana regen is nice but so low as to be irrelevant compared to his spending, and the lifesteal is essentially only relevant hitting rosh. Vlads would be a fine ~3rd item on him much like AM except for the fact that by the time its a 3rd item his team could be getting it for him.
Its much the same as other heroes, only medallion is much cheaper than vlads. Hows a level 6 LD "just average"?. Thats way easier than ursa lol (BUT SLOWER). The only hero doing a weird skill build to kill rosh is Troll. Maybe invoker doing it isn't pure standard but double forge spirits is very viable/standard, you aren't gimping yourself.
Level 3 rosh with enigma is something I've heard about but not seen. I bet there are youtube videos out there though. Who cares though since level 5 is still super fucking early.
So basically, ursa's level requirements are lower than most but not all (enigma and LD), and his farm requirements are lower than some but not even close to all (enigma, LD, Invoker, unsure re TA). His key advantage being that any 4-year-old can A-move rosh and that he does it very fast (Lycan speed, but less items).
Aka his only advantage is speed, which is why you dont' see the others do it very often. They have other stuff to do that by and large is more time efficient, whereas ursa doesn't.
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On October 10 2013 00:21 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 00:10 Sn0_Man wrote:Enigma can do it at level 3 (very fragile) or 5 (much simpler). Hows that "a level requirement"? Sure invoker needs 10/11, but that can happen around ursa's vlads timing if your game is going well (maybe you need a midas too ). Troll needs lifesteal and levels but TA could do it with just bottle+medallion or similar I bet. Lone druid literally only needs medallion and level 6. Ursa is the fastest of them all I think but he's nowhere near "unique" in his rosh ability. The thing is in pro games the other team can figure out whats happening if these heroes disappear from the map and so pubs don't see it happen. In pubs, nobody is smart enough to just do this stuff. At Level 3 Enigma needs a number of clarity potions to keep his mana going. Or probably a soul ring. I believe you could maybe pull off enigma, but I am really interested at how low of a level(and equipment) you can do it with Troll, TA and LD. Care to show me?
lots of ranged heroes can do it at lv6 after getting an orge magi creep and having just HoD+treads by abusing a spot in the rosh pit that casues roshan to walk back and forth a little bit
some examples include troll, windrunner, drow,
TA generally needs lv9 to do it efficiently but a bottle is really all she needs
The reason ursa is more viable is because he does it much faster than any of those heroes and has less lane presence wheras most of the ranged heroes cannot pull it off without it being much more obvious
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treads drums euls shivas/sheep on necro is really good. Mek if you have to.
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On October 10 2013 01:21 Sn0_Man wrote:
Well ursa is forced into vlads which tbh isn't very good on him otherwise (Simply because he doesn't need the damage, can get the armor from a variety of sources as an AGI hero, the mana regen is nice but so low as to be irrelevant compared to his spending, and the lifesteal is essentially only relevant hitting rosh. Vlads would be a fine ~3rd item on him much like AM except for the fact that by the time its a 3rd item his team could be getting it for him.
Its much the same as other heroes, only medallion is much cheaper than vlads. Hows a level 6 LD "just average"?. Thats way easier than ursa lol (BUT SLOWER). The only hero doing a weird skill build to kill rosh is Troll. Maybe invoker doing it isn't pure standard but double forge spirits is very viable/standard, you aren't gimping yourself.
Level 3 rosh with enigma is something I've heard about but not seen. I bet there are youtube videos out there though. Who cares though since level 5 is still super fucking early.
So basically, ursa's level requirements are lower than most but not all (enigma and LD), and his farm requirements are lower than some but not even close to all (enigma, LD, Invoker, unsure re TA). His key advantage being that any 4-year-old can A-move rosh and that he does it very fast (Lycan speed, but less items).
Aka his only advantage is speed, which is why you dont' see the others do it very often. They have other stuff to do that by and large is more time efficient, whereas ursa doesn't.
Lvl 6 for LD, go do it yourself. We can theorycraft all we want, actually take the 10 minutes and make it work.
Because unless you get some armor/dps items on top of your medaillon, you will not get it without resummon or a handful of healing salves(guessing of 3-6, probably more).
His advantage is only speed? If that is so, then Venomancer is the best at solo roshan. After all he can do it from lvl 1, it just takes 5-6 minutes.
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Of course it takes resummon. Are we disallowing abilities from this little theorycraft?
Can you just relax a little bit and try reading instead of raging? I'm not making ridiculous statements or anything, I'm trying to help educate you in how Dota works lol. If you wanna go try killing rosh with veno at level 1, be my guest. I'm not convinced it works at all tho, since he has innate regen etc.
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On October 09 2013 23:14 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 22:48 TheSubtleArt wrote:On October 09 2013 22:37 Laserist wrote:
How would be Atos on Ursa? I admit it is theory craft and a little bit forced but; it gives hp and negates kiting. I don't mean a TI4 material but may good on pubs? Wouldn't do anything vs force staff or ghost scepter, and not as important as your core of blink / vlads / BKB. Better to just save up a bit more and go for a sheepstick imo (actually pretty legit on Ursa) Neither of BKB/vlad/blink don't nullify force or ghost, so this point is not valid.
? Ursa's inherent damage is really high. Your concerns are 1. Getting on a target. 2. Attacking with all of your fury swipes.
Blink solves the first problem. BKB helps with the second. These are pretty much core on every Ursa build, with few exceptions (you can skip blink in some team compositions, for example).
At this point your 2 big problems are ghost scepter and force staff. Atos solves neither, so there's really no point in getting it, and nowhere in your item progression where it would really make sense. Sheepstick is a far better disable in the mid - late game because it blocks the use of defensive items. I typically just build basher and try to make an abyssal blade, but there's a lot of cases where hex is awesome.
As for vlads, IMO it's good beyond allowing you to rosh. The lifesteal is pretty significant given ursa's damage, greatly boosting your ability to stand and fight in teamfights. Lifesteal isn't relevant until your damage output is good enough to make the HP boost meaningful. For most carries this threshold requires items, but Ursa's inherent damage is so high that the vlads aura is pretty good even early in the game.
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Singapore147 Posts
Is there a delay after hook if you shift queue dismember? I.E. can mirana leap, qop blink away etc.
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Well, pudge's ult uses his cast animation (0.3s) so there is some "delay". Mirana's leap is insta-cast so it can avoid pudge ulti. QoP's cast animation on blink is .33s so you can dismember faster than blink.
Note that there is no reason to "shift-queue" the dismember as once you have cast the hook you are free to move around and ult regardless of the state of the hook. So just cast that dismember while they are midair forget about shift . Note that if you move towards your target while they are being pulled, you can start your dismember animation before the target is able to issue orders (a way to work around things like leap). Also note that so long as you START the dismember animation and do not lose sight of your enemy inside the .3s beginning animation, your dismember will still cast regardless of the enemy location. As such, mirana leaping away will not save her from dismember if she remains in vision. Obviously she will still be a long way away though.
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Singapore147 Posts
So dismember is faster than shadowblade since there is a fade time? Thanks for the comprehensive answer btw
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The fade time on shadowblade is equal to pudge's cast animation. I'm not sure what this means in the hypothetical situation where both commands are issued simultaneously but in practical terms this means that you need to get your ulti started BEFORE they reach the endpoint of the hook. So that means you need to issue the order on them when they are OUTSIDE ult range so that the command starts AS SOON AS they reach your ult range. Note that your ulti reveals invis once it is actually going so even if they get the shadowblade off before your ult actually disables them, so long as they don't finish fading they never will until after your ult is done.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 10 2013 03:00 Sn0_Man wrote:Note that there is no reason to "shift-queue" the dismember as once you have cast the hook you are free to move around and ult regardless of the state of the hook. So just cast that dismember while they are midair forget about shift . Note that if you move towards your target while they are being pulled, you can start your dismember animation before the target is able to issue orders (a way to work around things like leap). Also note that so long as you START the dismember animation and do not lose sight of your enemy inside the .3s beginning animation, your dismember will still cast regardless of the enemy location. As such, mirana leaping away will not save her from dismember if she remains in vision. Obviously she will still be a long way away though.
This is true in DotA 1, it's NOT true in DotA 2. In DotA 2 issuing a dismember cast after Hook buffers the dismember cast until after the hook ends.
In fact, you SHOULDN'T move toward your target while they are being hooked because this is a DotA 2 bug--if you are not facing the spot where the hook ends, you will have to turn to face the target before Dismembering.
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=56883&page=3&p=356991&viewfull=1#post356991
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Singapore147 Posts
Thanks Yango! What would the ideal way to try to catch a hero with invis be then? And in the hypothetical shadowblade situation which would go off first?
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EPT
