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On October 03 2013 05:11 HollowLord wrote:
Soul Ring is good on Skeleton King when you're playing vs a mana-burn enemy. If you're playing against Nyx or Silencer then tapping your soul ring right before you die can make or break a team fight.
Even in such situations, I would view a soul ring as quite excessive when a magic wand usually enough - Nyx burns mana based off your int, which isn't that much until late-late game, Silencer's curse is more irritating as a laning spell rather than teamfight.
Maybe, if you're against a QW invoker, Antimage (with manta), Nyx and another diffusal hero, would soul ring suddenly be amazing, but if it gets to the point where they're burning your mana so fast that you can't stick and res anyways, there are probably more problems with your team's execution than getting countered. Hex is pretty decent on Skeleton King if you're against Antimage and you want to keep shutting him down though.
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There is also 2 ancient secrets to playing Naix.
1. Thou shalt makest thine enemy think you are vulnerable and attack you.(let them come to you so they don't have mobility left to flee)
2. If thou can not vanquish thine enemy fast enough, thou requirest MOAR DAMAGE.(duh)
It greatly helps to have a teammate that has a good eye for openings/ isn't a pussy to infest bomb with.
Are you using Phase Boots? They are great for maneuvering in a crowded fight.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Yeah a big aspect of naix is the turnaround kill. Also racecar build is so popular because of the lack of positioning items. When you're moving at 432 base (492 active phase, max active drums) it's a lot easier to stick to people. Add a basher into abyssal for the lockdown into kill.
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DK also uses soul ring well.
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Can you dodge the self concoction stun by activating chemical rage ? I think you can but I still haven't managed to do it yet.
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On October 03 2013 21:44 Baggage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 05:11 HollowLord wrote:
Soul Ring is good on Skeleton King when you're playing vs a mana-burn enemy. If you're playing against Nyx or Silencer then tapping your soul ring right before you die can make or break a team fight. Even in such situations, I would view a soul ring as quite excessive when a magic wand usually enough - Nyx burns mana based off your int, which isn't that much until late-late game, Silencer's curse is more irritating as a laning spell rather than teamfight. Maybe, if you're against a QW invoker, Antimage (with manta), Nyx and another diffusal hero, would soul ring suddenly be amazing, but if it gets to the point where they're burning your mana so fast that you can't stick and res anyways, there are probably more problems with your team's execution than getting countered. Hex is pretty decent on Skeleton King if you're against Antimage and you want to keep shutting him down though.
Unless you can depend on supports for mana boots, I like soul ring on him anyway cause the stun's pretty mana intensive for his mana pool, yet has a short enough cooldown that you could multiple times in a fight without the mana restriction.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing is, SK's stun isn't actually something that you spam in laning/farming, which means that you're buying an item for sustained spell usage for a use case centered around short-term spell usage (within a single fight). That's inefficient. The most efficient way for you to get the mana for multiple stuns is on a +all stats item that gives enough other stats for the mana portion to not be costing you much, such as Drums.
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First of all; if you are not playing against manaburn any manaitem is a waste; stick + treads is more than enough for you (lets just assume that your team has any combination of manaboots + basi).
When playing against a team with manaburn it is also not entirely clear when to get a manaitem; if your team has the "normal" 2 manaboots it is rarely needed.
Playing against Necro3 or AM is a totally different thing, soulring will rarely save you (because you literally have to use it before dying but after one hit of those connected).
After all BKB is the best item against manaburn and considering that armlet is almost a must have aswell it is rarely worth it to delay those two core items by buying drums/soulring.
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United States47024 Posts
Drums are often a good buy on SK regardless, for the same reason you'd buy it on Lifestealer.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Yango is rome and all paths lead towards drums
This analogy is terrible
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On October 04 2013 03:44 TheYango wrote:
Drums are often a good buy on SK regardless, for the same reason you'd buy it on Lifestealer.
Naix and Skk are really different heroes considering that Naix already has an inbuilt BKB and needs a tad bit more mana (and his ultimate doesnt let him respawn with full mana). Naix does not need damage to the same extend as skk aswell because he already has rage + feast which makes the "racecar" build viable on him; his damage is already insane without any direct damage items.
For Skk to have any impact he needs atleast 2 things, damage and magic immunity; BKB and armlet give him those stats while drums is just another stat item which doesnt really give him anything ground-breaking besides the movementspeed (which he will get regardless if anyone buys it).
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United States47024 Posts
You're basically taking it as given that Skeleton King can't have any impact before his 2nd major item, which I don't agree with. A hero with a 300 base damage nuke on an 8 second CD can be very relevant in teamfights in the 10-15 minute mark, with a minor investment into a mana item like Drums. It's very reasonable for SK to farm 10 min Treads+Drums, participate in the first few major pushes/fights, then use the early kill/tower gold to immediately buffer himself a QB+Helm and then farm Armlet+BKB. You slow down your Armlet/BKB, but you help your team generate an overall advantage before that point rather than expecting to farm those items before entering the game.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ1ODY4ODY0.html
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On October 04 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:You're basically taking it as given that Skeleton King can't have any impact before his 2nd major item, which I don't agree with. A hero with a 300 base damage nuke on an 8 second CD can be very relevant in teamfights in the 10-15 minute mark, with a minor investment into a mana item like Drums. It's very reasonable for SK to farm 10 min Treads+Drums, participate in the first few major pushes/fights, then use the early kill/tower gold to immediately buffer himself a QB+Helm and then farm Armlet+BKB. You slow down your Armlet/BKB, but you help your team generate an overall advantage before that point rather than expecting to farm those items before entering the game. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ1ODY4ODY0.html
Ok first of all, i ment that Skk needs those two items to have any impact in a reasonable teamfight, obviously the hero is decent in small skirmishes (obviously not to the same extend as similar heroes; like naix) but he really needs to have these two items online before min ~25. to have a decent impact.
I do not think that buying drums on him does anything because it is easily possible to get min 11 drums+treads aswell and you actually deal physical damage with that instead of beeing a stunbot (with .83 more stuns due to your drums).
The VOD you posted did not really convice me either, it was a one-sided stomp in which he did not even use more than 1 drum-charge or the additional mana provided by drums ( i have never seen him get a clutch value out of the extra mana).
Calling drums a minor investment is also qute an understatement considering that it costs 1800 and a slot (skk will have major slot problems because he buys several mid tier items [bkb, armlet, deso])
edit: I am not telling you that Drums is terrible on skk (Hell i buy it sometimes myself [although my itembuilds are kinda wonky anyways) : http://dotabuff.com/players/32128719/matches?hero=skeleton-king&game_mode=&match_type=real) but it is sub optimal in most cases compared to straight armlet->bkb.
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On October 04 2013 04:43 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:You're basically taking it as given that Skeleton King can't have any impact before his 2nd major item, which I don't agree with. A hero with a 300 base damage nuke on an 8 second CD can be very relevant in teamfights in the 10-15 minute mark, with a minor investment into a mana item like Drums. It's very reasonable for SK to farm 10 min Treads+Drums, participate in the first few major pushes/fights, then use the early kill/tower gold to immediately buffer himself a QB+Helm and then farm Armlet+BKB. You slow down your Armlet/BKB, but you help your team generate an overall advantage before that point rather than expecting to farm those items before entering the game. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ1ODY4ODY0.html Ok first of all, i ment that Skk needs those two items to have any impact in a reasonable teamfight, obviously the hero is decent in small skirmishes (obviously not to the same extend as similar heroes; like naix) but he really needs to have these two items online before min ~25. to have a decent impact. I do not think that buying drums on him does anything because it is easily possible to get min 11 drums+treads aswell and you actually deal physical damage with that instead of beeing a stunbot (with .83 more stuns due to your drums). The VOD you posted did not really convice me either, it was a one-sided stomp in which he did not even use more than 1 drum-charge or the additional mana provided by drums ( i have never seen him get a clutch value out of the extra mana). Calling drums a minor investment is also qute an understatement considering that it costs 1800 and a slot (skk will have major slot problems because he buys several mid tier items [bkb, armlet, deso])
Bkb, deso, armlet, boots, drums, tp. No problem.
Thing is, that extra mana coupled with a wand gives you ~3 stuns and enough for your ulti + that extra speed to stick to your targets. Being a stunbot isn't a negative thing either since its good damage at early levels and combine it with mortal strike for massive kill potential.
An early active SK is beastly, as long as you have your ult up, play like a man and draw fire while throwing those stuns.
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On October 04 2013 05:09 Daaktard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 04:43 gaymon wrote:On October 04 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:You're basically taking it as given that Skeleton King can't have any impact before his 2nd major item, which I don't agree with. A hero with a 300 base damage nuke on an 8 second CD can be very relevant in teamfights in the 10-15 minute mark, with a minor investment into a mana item like Drums. It's very reasonable for SK to farm 10 min Treads+Drums, participate in the first few major pushes/fights, then use the early kill/tower gold to immediately buffer himself a QB+Helm and then farm Armlet+BKB. You slow down your Armlet/BKB, but you help your team generate an overall advantage before that point rather than expecting to farm those items before entering the game. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ1ODY4ODY0.html Ok first of all, i ment that Skk needs those two items to have any impact in a reasonable teamfight, obviously the hero is decent in small skirmishes (obviously not to the same extend as similar heroes; like naix) but he really needs to have these two items online before min ~25. to have a decent impact. I do not think that buying drums on him does anything because it is easily possible to get min 11 drums+treads aswell and you actually deal physical damage with that instead of beeing a stunbot (with .83 more stuns due to your drums). The VOD you posted did not really convice me either, it was a one-sided stomp in which he did not even use more than 1 drum-charge or the additional mana provided by drums ( i have never seen him get a clutch value out of the extra mana). Calling drums a minor investment is also qute an understatement considering that it costs 1800 and a slot (skk will have major slot problems because he buys several mid tier items [bkb, armlet, deso]) Bkb, deso, armlet, boots, drums, tp. No problem. Thing is, that extra mana coupled with a wand gives you ~3 stuns and enough for your ulti + that extra speed to stick to your targets. Being a stunbot isn't a negative thing either since its good damage at early levels and combine it with mortal strike for massive kill potential. An early active SK is beastly, as long as you have your ult up, play like a man and draw fire while throwing those stuns.
No it gives u .83 more stuns*(per life), wand is gotten in every case anyways.(as i already wrote in my first response)
By your logic you will be selling your wand incredibly early which is an insane waste, Wand is a far too good item to give up on because you want to have drums (small hint, Navi lost TI3 because dendi wanted to have wand over tp  )
I can not elaborate enough on how insane of an item Wand is, especially on a hero like skk who stays in fights forever. (Stick does a lot more for your mana than drums aswell)
edit*
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I almost never get BKB on SK (and I actually used to play this hero a lot for some reason), unless I'm the sole physical DPS hero on my team and theirs consists of several disablers. The thing is if you rush BKB after treads or something, you hardly do any damage, you're hardly mobile enough to actually hit people, and perhaps most importantly, you're not using your free Aegis to your advantage.
My idea of SK is that you want the enemy team to have to make the choice of either wasting their spells on you (and you revive anyway), or ignoring you (at which point you proceed to hit them with your big ass sword). But BKB doesn't give you a big ass sword, it just gives you 36 damage. Armlet, Deso and Mjollnir on the other hand, they make your sword big..
In most games (and let's be honest we're talking High/Very High pub games here) I think SK's itembuild should prioritize DPS, Tankiness, Mobility and then Magic Immunity, in that order. Perhaps even mobility before tankiness. So, good builds that adress these issues are Phase/Drums/Wand/Armlet and Treads/Wand/Armlet/Yasha->SnY. Wand, as said before, is essential if you plan on participating in lots of fights (which you should). The Phase/Drums build somehow feels especially good if you level crit early (which you can affort to do instead of taking stats, since you'll get stats from the Drums). If you finish Armlet early you actually instakill supports if you happen to crit (counting stun damage ofc).
Please don't waste gold on an item like Forcestaff or even worse Blink Dagger. Get Yasha, it lets you actually hit people, it gives you much needed IAS, and even a bit of useful Armor.
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On October 04 2013 05:18 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 05:09 Daaktard wrote:On October 04 2013 04:43 gaymon wrote:On October 04 2013 04:27 TheYango wrote:You're basically taking it as given that Skeleton King can't have any impact before his 2nd major item, which I don't agree with. A hero with a 300 base damage nuke on an 8 second CD can be very relevant in teamfights in the 10-15 minute mark, with a minor investment into a mana item like Drums. It's very reasonable for SK to farm 10 min Treads+Drums, participate in the first few major pushes/fights, then use the early kill/tower gold to immediately buffer himself a QB+Helm and then farm Armlet+BKB. You slow down your Armlet/BKB, but you help your team generate an overall advantage before that point rather than expecting to farm those items before entering the game. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTQ1ODY4ODY0.html Ok first of all, i ment that Skk needs those two items to have any impact in a reasonable teamfight, obviously the hero is decent in small skirmishes (obviously not to the same extend as similar heroes; like naix) but he really needs to have these two items online before min ~25. to have a decent impact. I do not think that buying drums on him does anything because it is easily possible to get min 11 drums+treads aswell and you actually deal physical damage with that instead of beeing a stunbot (with .83 more stuns due to your drums). The VOD you posted did not really convice me either, it was a one-sided stomp in which he did not even use more than 1 drum-charge or the additional mana provided by drums ( i have never seen him get a clutch value out of the extra mana). Calling drums a minor investment is also qute an understatement considering that it costs 1800 and a slot (skk will have major slot problems because he buys several mid tier items [bkb, armlet, deso]) Bkb, deso, armlet, boots, drums, tp. No problem. Thing is, that extra mana coupled with a wand gives you ~3 stuns and enough for your ulti + that extra speed to stick to your targets. Being a stunbot isn't a negative thing either since its good damage at early levels and combine it with mortal strike for massive kill potential. An early active SK is beastly, as long as you have your ult up, play like a man and draw fire while throwing those stuns. No it gives u .83 more stuns*(per life), wand is gotten in every case anyways.(as i already wrote in my first response) By your logic you will be selling your wand incredibly early which is an insane waste, Wand is a far too good item to give up on because you want to have drums (small hint, Navi lost TI3 because dendi wanted to have wand over tp ) I can not elaborate enough on how insane of an item Wand is, especially on a hero like skk who stays in fights forever. (Stick does a lot more for your mana than drums aswell) edit*
I didnt say three more, I meant in total. Should have clarified. Also, you'd be selling your wand after Armlet bkb when you get you're 4th item. I don't see the problem here.
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On October 04 2013 04:06 flamewheel wrote:
Yango is rome and all paths lead towards drums
This analogy is terrible
Be happy that the roads no longer lead to Urn + Aquila.
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The thing is what does each item provides for SK imo.
Drums is acting as a mana pool buffer, increasing his pathetic mana pool, while soul ring gives you mana directly. imo, soulring is a must vs mana burning teams, or the very important part of his skill set(ultimate) is negated. You might as well dont add ultimate vs mana burning teams(AM/Nyx combo for example, or even Naga/PL)
Drums is actually quite an expensive item at 1800gold(total), but having relatively smaller parts. However the major benefit is that it lets SK go "racecar" mode combined with a Phase, which is extremely important for a melee right clicking hero imo.
In conclusion, I personally favor Phase/Drums/Armlet Deso against normal teams, while i prefer Soul Ring against mana burning opponents just to ensure I can use my ultimate when I die.
I do not like BKB on SK, namely because it's SK job to eat damage as he has 2 lives in a fight. Going BKB basically forces your teammates eat the spell damage instead of you, where it will hurt your team more overall. I prefer having all 5 heroes alive but damaged rather than having like 3dead teamates and SK+1 alive.
It's better to go DPS builds on SK because it forces the enemy into a catch-22 situation. Focus on SK he eats all the damage and revive, or ignore SK and get beaten by him and you cant escape because of the racecar movement speed and his 8sec cd stun.
Armlet is a amazing item for that purpose as like i said,its your job to eat damage(which means he needs life) and to do damage in order to force the catch-22 situation. Armlet serves both needs.
Soulring is a must, as it prevents a direct counter to SK. If we see a Skeleton king, the easy way to destroy it is to go mana burn(as it has a low mana pool) and we've negated a major part of his playstyle(revive) for basically nothing at all. Soulring prevents that from happening, thus i classify it as a MUST against mana burning opponents.
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EPT
