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United States47024 Posts
On September 26 2013 02:41 synapse wrote:
the thing about maxing remnant first is you often can't afford to sit around and farm a bloodstone/orchid when your team needs you between like 7ish and 15ish minute marks. each level increase also increases the damage from remnant by very little while also increasing the mana cost, so a lot of times it's nearly as efficient (farm-wise) to max overload instead.
Remnant max isn't just about farming. Remnant max is about trading a small amount of killing power for a better overall tempo. Being able to convert kills into tower pressure because you shove lanes faster, being able to use a TP to gank, use up your mana in the jungle, walk home, then have TP CD up and a new item in hand, etc.
Overload max is stronger in ONLY raw killing power. Pure kills don't mean anything if you can't convert it into a farm advantage and map pressure, but likewise having the tools to farm and push is meaningless if you can't kill anyone. Remnant vs. Overload is about that tradeoff and determining what mix of Overload and Remnant give you enough killing power AND enough pushing/farming ability--and this varies heavily based on the game (what heroes you're against, how well they're farming, etc.).
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On September 26 2013 03:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 02:41 synapse wrote:
the thing about maxing remnant first is you often can't afford to sit around and farm a bloodstone/orchid when your team needs you between like 7ish and 15ish minute marks. each level increase also increases the damage from remnant by very little while also increasing the mana cost, so a lot of times it's nearly as efficient (farm-wise) to max overload instead. Remnant max isn't just about farming. Remnant max is about trading a small amount of killing power for a better overall tempo. Being able to convert kills into tower pressure because you shove lanes faster, being able to use a TP to gank, use up your mana in the jungle, walk home, then have TP CD up and a new item in hand, etc. Overload max is stronger in ONLY raw killing power. Pure kills don't mean anything if you can't convert it into a farm advantage and map pressure, but likewise having the tools to farm and push is meaningless if you can't kill anyone. Remnant vs. Overload is about that tradeoff and determining what mix of Overload and Remnant give you enough killing power AND enough pushing/farming ability--and this varies heavily based on the game (what heroes you're against, how well they're farming, etc.).
I think a big deal of overload max is harassing in levels 3-5 in your lane and being able to zone the other hero out, from what i've asked good storm players, depending on the matchup.
Obviously can't discount that.
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United States47024 Posts
Yes, that is also a consideration. Early Overload ranks do help in lane, though typically more than rank 2 or 3 is overkill and delaying rank 3 Vortex hits your ganking power.
When i was talking about Overload vs Remnant, I meant after a typical 1-3-1-1 or 1-3-2-1 start.
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I mention if its a stomp you can get a bloodstone,because the bloodstone comes out earlier than usual, and you get to store a lot of charges on it.
Since its a stomp,they will be dying easily giving you a lot of charges making it extremely effective.
Thus i think bloodstone is usually built on a stomp,because by nature a stomp is just that, you do not need a orchid to further increase your killing power when your already trashing them into the ground,which makes it a super situational item,aka snowbally item.
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On September 26 2013 07:37 Mithhaike wrote:
I mention if its a stomp you can get a bloodstone,because the bloodstone comes out earlier than usual, and you get to store a lot of charges on it.
Since its a stomp,they will be dying easily giving you a lot of charges making it extremely effective.
Thus i think bloodstone is usually built on a stomp,because by nature a stomp is just that, you do not need a orchid to further increase your killing power when your already trashing them into the ground,which makes it a super situational item,aka snowbally item.
You really don't need to stomp to get charges on the bloodstone. If anything, storm is most likely to survive teambattles due to his mobile nature, so collecting charges shouldn't be a problem in the least unless you're getting stomped yourself, in which case I do not suggest bloodstone.
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On September 26 2013 06:03 TheYango wrote:
Yes, that is also a consideration. Early Overload ranks do help in lane, though typically more than rank 2 or 3 is overkill and delaying rank 3 Vortex hits your ganking power.
When i was talking about Overload vs Remnant, I meant after a typical 1-3-1-1 or 1-3-2-1 start.
A common build is the 2-3-2-1 build. Having 2 in both remnant and overload let's you clear creep waves with 2 remnants (+2 overload procs).
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no it doesn't
it's 4-x-1 or 3-x-3
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United States47024 Posts
On September 26 2013 14:30 Dead9 wrote:
no it doesn't
it's 4-x-1 or 3-x-3
This.
If you only get 2 Remnant, you actually need 4 Overload before 2xRemnant + 2xOverload kills melee creeps.
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You do 100 damage with 2 overloads and 360 with 2 remnants. Total of 460. If you include one auto attack from storm on each melee creep to proc the overload (the auto attack on the 3rd creep won't proc an overload) you end up dealing about 550 assuming +8 damage from treads, +9 damage from a null.
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United States47024 Posts
You're only assuming you're trying to clear a single wave of 3 melee + 1 ranged. It's more often the times you are actually going to use spells to try and clear a wave are when there's a double or triple wave pushing to you. In that case, the difference is very pronounced because then attacking each creep once takes quite some time.
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On September 26 2013 15:53 TheYango wrote:
You're only assuming you're trying to clear a single wave of 3 melee + 1 ranged. It's more often the times you are actually going to use spells to try and clear a wave are when there's a double or triple wave pushing to you. In that case, the difference is very pronounced because then attacking each creep once takes quite some time.
Big creep waves generally have most creeps below full hp so you don't end up needing the auto attack damage.
Besides, the remnant/overload won't always cover the entire creep wave so often you need a 3rd remnant to clean up stragglers.
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most of the time if you're remnanting melee creeps you're clearing big waves or cutting creeps behind the tower
in both of those situations more remnant is better
and either way saying 2-x-2 clears creep waves in 2 remnants is wrong
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If you're creep skipping, i just said what the numbers would be. Two remnants, two overloads + one auto attack on the 3rd creep will clear a wave.
I agree though, I often prefer more points in remnant after that point. Not for clearing melee creeps but for clearing jungle camps.
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it's still better to have more remnant, since then you can walk away while remnanting instead of having to autoattack
also storm doesn't have 100~110 autoattack damage by level 8 or 9
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With something like treads, wand, null you should have enough damage whether you put a 3rd point into remnant or overload even taking into account creep armour and the bonus hp they get at 7:30.
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So if neutrals kill the courier, does the enemy team still get gold?
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On September 27 2013 01:58 Mafe wrote:
So if neutrals kill the courier, does the enemy team still get gold?
1. no one should get the gold
2. how the fuck do you get the courier killed by neutrals
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On September 27 2013 02:03 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:58 Mafe wrote:
So if neutrals kill the courier, does the enemy team still get gold? 1. no one should get the gold 2. how the fuck do you get the courier killed by neutrals
1. That's what I also feel like, but what "should" be isn't always what is.
2. Ask Team Empire.
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On September 27 2013 02:12 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 02:03 Qbek wrote:On September 27 2013 01:58 Mafe wrote:
So if neutrals kill the courier, does the enemy team still get gold? 1. no one should get the gold 2. how the fuck do you get the courier killed by neutrals 1. That's what I also feel like, but what "should" be isn't always what is. 2. Ask Team Empire.
No one should get the gold but i would need to test it. asking to make testing easier xD
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On September 27 2013 02:30 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 02:12 Mafe wrote:On September 27 2013 02:03 Qbek wrote:On September 27 2013 01:58 Mafe wrote:
So if neutrals kill the courier, does the enemy team still get gold? 1. no one should get the gold 2. how the fuck do you get the courier killed by neutrals 1. That's what I also feel like, but what "should" be isn't always what is. 2. Ask Team Empire. No one should get the gold but i would need to test it. asking to make testing easier xD
Aggro the neutral camp with the courier nearby. Drop creep aggro (I can't remember if you can do it normally or if you actually have to die or tp or something) with only the courier in aggro range of the creeps. Creeps should switch aggro to the courier.
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EPT
