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On September 20 2013 02:24 vndestiny wrote:
But Manta is awesome because it is a defensive item with good offensive power no ? Manta illusions aid in the overall dps by quite a lot. It also helps you run faster, hit a little harder and much faster, create confusion with illusions, add an orge club worth of hp, some mana for headshot spam. What's not to love about Manta ?
It doesn't help sniper much. He's better off with raw dps items, but I could see it sometimes being a viable pickup especially when playing alone.
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sniper item/skills all depends on the game. maxing headshot is perfectly fine in mid or a 1v1 lane. manta however i do not like, i build yasha sometimes but never really finish manta as i think that item is trash on sniper especially if the game is hard.
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On September 20 2013 01:14 TheYango wrote:Butterfly is more or less your 4th or 5th item just because by that point it's inherent cost-effectiveness for most Agi carries starts to outweigh everything else. Manta is strong simply because it supplements your ability to siege towers, which as mentioned, is one of Sniper's strong points. Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Is lifesteal really necessary? A common way to build Luna is tranquil aquila drum bkb manta, which doesn't have any lifesteal until after the manta or even after butterfly; and her str growth is only marginally better than sniper's, while her range is far inferior. Lifesteal is also a lategame consideration like BFly. You don't need it early (and it should rarely be bought early), it's just that once you are reaching 4th/5th item (e.g. Manta+BKB+damage item) Evasion and Lifesteal become fundamentally cost-effective enough at that point to be a big deal. Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 00:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
His inability to farm is problematic, but he's not different in that regard to carries like Chaos Knight or a PA not making bfury and other ganking carries. Just needs some item and team combination to enable him to be effective in fights/pushes. He can help give his team a strong 5man at a timing where the other team can't group as such depending on their carry. Sniper can just put his team in a perpetual state of sieging, and because of Shrapnel and range have the capacity to highground if it gets to that point. It's very different from CK and PA because CK and PA have up-front combat power even before they have a major item. Sniper needs to complete 1-2 major items to have any combat power, and realistically needs 3-4 before he starts controlling fights.
Just curious, why should Butterfly typically be a 4th or 5th item, and would the reasoning apply to other similar agi carries?
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On September 20 2013 08:44 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 01:14 TheYango wrote:Butterfly is more or less your 4th or 5th item just because by that point it's inherent cost-effectiveness for most Agi carries starts to outweigh everything else. Manta is strong simply because it supplements your ability to siege towers, which as mentioned, is one of Sniper's strong points. On September 20 2013 00:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Is lifesteal really necessary? A common way to build Luna is tranquil aquila drum bkb manta, which doesn't have any lifesteal until after the manta or even after butterfly; and her str growth is only marginally better than sniper's, while her range is far inferior. Lifesteal is also a lategame consideration like BFly. You don't need it early (and it should rarely be bought early), it's just that once you are reaching 4th/5th item (e.g. Manta+BKB+damage item) Evasion and Lifesteal become fundamentally cost-effective enough at that point to be a big deal. On September 20 2013 00:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
His inability to farm is problematic, but he's not different in that regard to carries like Chaos Knight or a PA not making bfury and other ganking carries. Just needs some item and team combination to enable him to be effective in fights/pushes. He can help give his team a strong 5man at a timing where the other team can't group as such depending on their carry. Sniper can just put his team in a perpetual state of sieging, and because of Shrapnel and range have the capacity to highground if it gets to that point. It's very different from CK and PA because CK and PA have up-front combat power even before they have a major item. Sniper needs to complete 1-2 major items to have any combat power, and realistically needs 3-4 before he starts controlling fights. Just curious, why should Butterfly typically be a 4th or 5th item, and would the reasoning apply to other similar agi carries?
I'll defer to Yango on this, but I think it's because the cost-effectiveness of evasion goes up as you have more health/armor. Basically if you get it earlier, you don't live as long as you would if you had something else, but if you get it later, you live longer than if you had other things.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Butterfly's biggest asset is the evasion it provides. Evasion isn't that useful earlier when you don't have a large HP pool to make use of it. That aside, the damage and attack speed boost don't justify the price, and you're far better off getting more cost-effective items for mid-game combat.
It's rather the same reasoning for why you don't build a heart straight away on heroes like PL or Spectre, but get cheaper items like drums, diffusal etc...
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jesus this discussion again
phase/lothars/mkb/basher/mom
dont build a bkb unless you're playing cm
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Did someone ask for sniper here!?
Due to some weird addiction to the hero, I actually handpicked sniper when i am in a good mood so i have this weird understanding of 'how to make sniper work in tough games' (games are all in very high/page1-5 etc), ill keep it short here but like what they already said:
On September 20 2013 01:38 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 01:27 Laserist wrote:
Am I the one who maxes head shot and forget shrapnel completely? It has a %40 chance 90 damage bonus at level 7 for god sake.
This is what a vast majority of people do, everyone underestimates the power of shrapnel. It's not particularly that the skill is AMAZING, it is very good but it is the only utility sniper has at his disposal. I'm really not a big fan of Manta on sniper at all, I think it's an utter waste as a 1st/2nd/3rd item, even 4th. Yes his strength is sieging, and in most cases you play to your Dota hero's strength, but Snipers weaknesses are too huge and need to be compensated first imo. You either go pure glass-cannon or standard/defensive. I usually go Phase, Drums, Wand, 1 Wraith, TP, and Yasha. Then generally into BKB or Desolator. Another alternative is Shadowblade in place of the Yasha.
On September 20 2013 00:25 TheYango wrote:
You need like 4 items for Sniper to be useful regardless. There's not really a combination of 1-2 items that will really feel good on him unless you're at the level where Lothar's is a get out of jail free card.
The hero basically needs something like Manta+Bfly+Lifesteal+sometimes BKB+1 damage item to really feel impactful in teamfights. At the same time he doesn't have the farming capability to get there easily unless your team is babying you the whole game.
Facts/probably why sniper is hated in general:
The hero cant farm faster enough, cant split push effectively, cant be effective in teamfight even until late game, too fragile (ie usually end up feeding), he is quite an unreliable carry.
after many experiments and this is what I learnt:
You need to have good positioning in all game, you need to know when to use shrapnel (when used right the spell put insane pressure to the lane), you are not adviced to play against some face rush heroes especially like Bara and your general skill of carrying (what item to buy in what situation and to survive a gank or when to help team or pushing) needs to be good because you will mostly get focused down all game.
(Of course we are talking about the hard games here where people actually handpick/repick for good line up or the Bara picker will actually gank the shit out of you etc; in lower level pub anything works).
Skill build/game plan: Maxing headshot is fine for dominating the lane (especially 1v1 mid) but you need to keep in mind that you are giving up Shrapnel as your crazy guaranteed 8mins T1 tower kill. Your plan would generally be 1)headshot->own mid hard and gank hard/kill more heroes/snowball or 2)shrapnel ->play a 'farm-ish' styple carry (regardless of mid/safelane) only tp when needed in team fight.
Items:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130832145
Generally, 1st core is sobi mask for shrapnel sniper, otherwise, midas/lothar/mom (or a drum if you liked that and could get that earlier than 10mins).
2nd/3rd/4th items should be all dps items buriza/mkb/bfly/satanic/deso/divine, sniper is intended to be a glass cannon (<1k hp at lvl16 iirc, I would rather not bother with that fragility) .
Manta is a high ground item if your team lack of that. Bkb/AB are situational.
Disadvantaged game items, when you would skip that lothar because you were too poor, go for crystalis/maelstrom/yasha (would be nice if you had a midas too).
Dagger/arcane/Eblade/eul are fun builds.
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This is awesome...
I haven't played sniper all that much except on occasion when I random him. I've always been a passives first kinda person with fast max of bash and maybe 1 point in shrapnel. This has changed my entire perspective of him...
Orchid sniper ftw!
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Just a question regarding something from the latest patch notes:
Spirit Breaker: Fixed Greater Bash not applying further knockback on units that were already getting knocked back.
So if you proc greater bash while a unit is getting knocked back, does this mean you do the bonus damage without the further knock back?
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My understanding of this is that you will get knocked back farther than before because the second bash was coming into effect before the first knockback had completed and was canceling some of the knockback.
Edit: I have a question which I'm going to post here to avoid a double post.
From what I understand of Pseudo Random Number Generation, not getting a proc on something multiple times in a row increases your chance for the proc. Does this mean you could force the system to give you procs on something like Entangle by hitting a creep with the bear until you've gone 4 hits or whatever number is best without an Entangle proc and then go hit a hero? Is this how Admiral Bulldog gets all his first hit Entangles?
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United States47024 Posts
Entangle doesn't use PRD.
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Oh. Well then...
Edit: Wait. So Entangle is pure random chance then?
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On September 20 2013 15:15 GtC wrote:
Oh. Well then...
Edit: Wait. So Entangle is pure random chance then?
Well no computer generated RNG is true RNG
But its close to it
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On September 20 2013 14:31 GtC wrote:
My understanding of this is that you will get knocked back farther than before because the second bash was coming into effect before the first knockback had completed and was canceling some of the knockback.
I was rushing that post and worded my question poorly. I meant to ask how it works right now before the patch comes into effect.
So when the patch comes in the 2nd knock back only takes effect when the first one finishes? Whereas right now, it cancels the first knock back and overrides it with the 2nd bash proc?
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United States47024 Posts
Right now if the enemy hero is in the process of being knocked back, the second bash doesn't move them, it just refreshes the stun.
After the patch, the knockback will move them again when they get bashed again.
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So i have read the new patch notes. Could someone explain a bit this thing, please? Plus i have a few additional questions.
1. Added Double Tap Self Cast Timeout, controllable with the dota_ability_self_cast_timeout convar - I always wondered why is the self casting with double tap so slow, for instance heal with omni. Does it mean there was an added time for selfcast and now you can remove it by setting it up via command?
2. When i use quick cast for my abilities instead of normal cast, i can not use double tap for self cast anymore. Is it possible to make it available somehow?
3. Standard hotkey for toggling ability on and off is ALT + ability. But i have my items on ALT + same hotkey as abilities.
I tried setting it up on CTRL + ability key, but it doesn't work. How can i set it up, so i don't have to use right click mouse to toggle ability on/off when i can not use ALT for it?
4. There is a command which sets up timeout when you click command on the minimap. Can somebody tell me which command is it?
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Can anyone link me to some tips or information about pulling camps into friendly creeps?
I have no problem with the close medium camps on either side (left for dire or bottom for radiant), or the far left large camp on dire. I cannot get the creeps from any other camp to follow me for long enough, though.
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On September 20 2013 21:24 hzflank wrote:
Can anyone link me to some tips or information about pulling camps into friendly creeps?
I have no problem with the close medium camps on either side (left for dire or bottom for radiant), or the far left large camp on dire. I cannot get the creeps from any other camp to follow me for long enough, though.
I don't knwo a guide but it is tricky. If you have an AOE nuke, you can pull before the last natural creep dies and nuke it to allow your creeps follow the new ones. And you need some practice and estimation.
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On September 20 2013 21:24 hzflank wrote:
Can anyone link me to some tips or information about pulling camps into friendly creeps?
I have no problem with the close medium camps on either side (left for dire or bottom for radiant), or the far left large camp on dire. I cannot get the creeps from any other camp to follow me for long enough, though.
Practice.
You generally want to have aggroed the next pull camp when the last creep has about 1/2 HP left, but there's no easy/generally applicable rule or timing as it all varies with creeps, hero movement speed etc. For larger creeps I'd say half HP or 2 smaller creeps.
Other tips are getting hit by the nc increases your creeps aggro range or pulling early then nuking down the remaining nc.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
A number I've arbitrarily used is 600hp left when I pull the next creep camp. It's also generally better to be slightly too early than too late since you can just auto attack a few extra times if you need to.
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EPT
