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On September 09 2013 11:57 krez wrote:
I'm unsure what to do when I go hard carry such as PA and get shut down early by an aggressive dual (such as pudge + sb) combined with ganks from mid.
I assume in this situation you just have to call for ganks constantly so that they don't snowball and deny your levels and farm.
But let's just say you did get shut down and are lvl 8 when their mids and carries are 3 levels ahead of you, what should you do in this situation? They will be pushing towers and with annoying gankers like sb and pudge you're not safe free farming.. and you can't join team fights with such a low level and no items.
What to do?
In that situation,a PA can't do anything. You can only hope that the other team mess up and you guys won a teamfight somehow. A PA requires at least a BKB to be even remotely effective.
If you have good game sense/map awareness, split pushing out a lane while their pushing down towers can work. Just be careful.
In the early game, you shouldn't be losing the lane badly if you have a dual lane of your own, try to get as much farm & exp safely as possible. Yeah you need to call for a gank from your mid.
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On September 09 2013 11:47 tEEYOUNEE wrote:
Yea I know, but it seems like a lot of the time if I feel like I should be helping another lane, but I will try this.
Hold a TP, when the other team goes Aggro, TP up top
you'll get more done
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I have some questions about sf skill builds.
Does anyone else think that it could be good to put a point into presence of the dark lord (aura) before maxing the other spells? I found it to be quite strong when you are doing well in your lane and it helps to push the tower and get rune controll. Or is it simply better to just max raze and necromastery?
Also when should I get stats before maxing the aura? Don´t really now how good it is considering it only adds -1 armor after the first point and sf is really quite squishy.
Lastly when should I get the ultimate? Most of the time I delay it until level 9-10 because I think its hard to make it usefull without blink or shadow blade or some other setup and there are hardly any teamfights anyways before I reach that level when I´m solo mid.
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United States47024 Posts
Presence in lane is pretty meh. You should have no problems pushing lane using Raze by the time you have enough control to do so (the majority of matchups you're simply not strong enough in lane for pushing your lane like that to be a good thing--if you get the creep wave over to your side, you want to control it there so you can farm).
Stats before Aura is situational based on the teamcomps, game state, and your item choice. In general aura is stronger with more carries on your team or you need more damage, and weaker if you need survivability.
Ultimate should be delayed till level 9 simply because Ultimate without full stacks on Necromastery is usually not worth it.
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Ultimate is still really useful. Before you have SB/blink you mostly use it defensively when fogging people etc. I recommend always getting it at 9 and maxing raze/necro. Presence passively pushes the lane which is something you don't really want. You've got razes anyway if you really want that rune/push tower. Presence will make it so that in a situation where you need the creeps on your side they won't be.
Don't forget that requiem is a 50% dmg debuff aoe, that can really save you or your teammates even if it's at lvl 1.
Some people like to get a point in stats before ulti at 10-11 but imo that's not good anymore, Presence used to give -2 armor and SF has always been a squishy hero that's why stats were sometimes picked before aura. But the thing is that since then SF has gotten buffs to his ms/agi and to his other spells. Stats just don't cut it anymore.
Only time I would get presence before necro(and only at lvl 7->8) is if I just died with a saved up point without the time to farm up the missing souls because of impending fights. Which is a situation that's very rare.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 09 2013 19:04 Andr3 wrote:
Some people like to get a point in stats before ulti at 10-11 but imo that's not good anymore, Presence used to give -2 armor and SF has always been a squishy hero that's why stats were sometimes picked before aura. But the thing is that since then SF has gotten buffs to his ms/agi and to his other spells. Stats just don't cut it anymore.
He means Stats instead of rank 2-4 aura I believe. Presence has only been buffed at the 1st rank, ranks 2-4 are still only -1 armor each.
Though one thing to keep in mind is that -armor is stronger the closer you bring someone to 0, so rank 2/3/4 only giving -1 armor each is somewhat deceptive in making you think that they are equal. Taking someone from 3 armor to 2 armor is a greater damage increase than taking them from 4 armor to 3 armor.
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Does BKB stop stone gaze in DOTA2? Is it supposed to stop Stone Gaze in the first place?
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On September 09 2013 19:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 19:04 Andr3 wrote:
Some people like to get a point in stats before ulti at 10-11 but imo that's not good anymore, Presence used to give -2 armor and SF has always been a squishy hero that's why stats were sometimes picked before aura. But the thing is that since then SF has gotten buffs to his ms/agi and to his other spells. Stats just don't cut it anymore.
He means Stats instead of rank 2-4 aura I believe. Presence has only been buffed at the 1st rank, ranks 2-4 are still only -1 armor each. Though one thing to keep in mind is that -armor is stronger the closer you bring someone to 0, so rank 2/3/4 only giving -1 armor each is somewhat deceptive in making you think that they are equal. Taking someone from 3 armor to 2 armor is a greater damage increase than taking them from 4 armor to 3 armor.
I thought -amor doesn´t have diminishing returns until you get to -amor?
Isn´t it 1 amor = 6% ehp ? At least for physical attacks.
The 'Effective Hit Points', or EHP, of a hero is the amount of damage a hero is able to sustain (before damage reductions). From this, it can be concluded that each extra point of armor increases the EHP of a hero by a constant 6%. This allows heroes survivability to grow exponentially with armor. By contrast, strength or raw HP items scale linearly. This is one of the main reasons why Agility heroes scale well and are often more survivable than Strength heroes late game. This observation briefly popularized Slardar and Dazzle.
From liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Armor
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Indeed, the misconception comes from the way damage reduction % increase seems to lessen as you add more armour.
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United States47024 Posts
That's correct, -armor's value is linear in the absolute sense.
However, we don't care about armor->EHP in the absolute sense, because we care about it's value relative to other stats. In this case, EHP is related to armor x HP (meaning that buying more armor increases the relative value of HP), and DPS is related to (-armor) x damage x attack speed (meaning that buying more -armor increases the relative value of damage and attack speed and vice versa).
To illustrate what I mean: suppose you are attacking a target with 1000 HP and 1 armor. You have 100 damage and 1 attack per second, and you have something that gives -1 armor. Without the -armor you would need 10.6 seconds (really 11 because you can't have fractional attacks but bear with me) to kill them without the -armor and 10 seconds to kill them with it.
Now suppose you are attacking a target with 1000 HP and 10 armor. Without the -armor you'd need 16 seconds to kill, and 15.4 with it.
"Ya ok, that's -0.6 in both cases." Now think about how much damage you would need to accomplish the same in either case. To kill a target with 1000 HP and 1 armor in 10 seconds with no -armor, you'd need to buy 6 damage. To kill a target with 1000 HP and 10 armor in 15.4 seconds, you'd need to buy 3.9 damage. So while the EHP decrease is linear, it's value relative to +damage is less at higher -armor, which is why -armor is more valuable at lower armor values.
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On September 09 2013 23:23 TheYango wrote:
That's correct, -armor's value is linear in the absolute sense.
However, we don't care about armor->EHP in the absolute sense, because we care about it's value relative to other stats. In this case, EHP is related to armor x HP (meaning that buying more armor increases the relative value of HP), and DPS is related to (-armor) x damage x attack speed (meaning that buying more -armor increases the relative value of damage and attack speed and vice versa).
To illustrate what I mean: suppose you are attacking a target with 1000 HP and 1 armor. You have 100 damage and 1 attack per second, and you have something that gives -1 armor. Without the -armor you would need 10.6 seconds (really 11 because you can't have fractional attacks but bear with me) to kill them without the -armor and 10 seconds to kill them with it.
Now suppose you are attacking a target with 1000 HP and 10 armor. Without the -armor you'd need 16 seconds to kill, and 15.4 with it.
"Ya ok, that's -0.6 in both cases." Now think about how much damage you would need to accomplish the same in either case. To kill a target with 1000 HP and 1 armor in 10 seconds with no -armor, you'd need to buy 6 damage. To kill a target with 1000 HP and 10 armor in 15.4 seconds, you'd need to buy 3.9 damage. So while the EHP decrease is linear, it's value relative to +damage is less at higher -armor, which is why -armor is more valuable at lower armor values.
Thanks for that great explanation. It kinda always felt like -armor was hitting harder when the enemy had less armor overall but it just never really made sense to me why.
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What do you guys think about Soul Ring Juggernaut? I saw someone do it in a pub and it seemed to work pretty well. Lets you use blade fury in a pinch and you can use healing ward to recover health lost. Does he just not have enough HP to use it effectively?
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On September 10 2013 14:11 B1nary wrote:
What do you guys think about Soul Ring Juggernaut? I saw someone do it in a pub and it seemed to work pretty well. Lets you use blade fury in a pinch and you can use healing ward to recover health lost. Does he just not have enough HP to use it effectively?
His HP pool is low and the Soul Ring actually does not have that many uses that spending 800 gold and an itemslot would make sense. Get faster boots/drums or b-fury or ahgs or whatever instead. You wont be spamming spells and you cannot afford the HP loss when you'll be bursted so quickly even without the HP loss.
EDIT: Yango knows better, just like he usually does  But when should Soul Ring then be bought, I can't see juggernaut going into jungle very quickly as he still would be pretty vulnurable to ganks and his early jungling relies a lot on the bladefury which then on cooldown can't be used to escape.
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United States47024 Posts
It's actually ok in certain situations because it speeds up/smooths out your jungle farming a lot when you can use Ward and Spin to clear stacked camps and not run dry on mana, while also not committing as much gold to a farming item as something like Battle Fury does. However, the lack of combat stats means you really have to get that farming value out of it for it to be worthwhile because it's pretty much 800 dead weight gold in a real fight.
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On September 09 2013 19:49 Mithhaike wrote:
Does BKB stop stone gaze in DOTA2? Is it supposed to stop Stone Gaze in the first place?
nope, and nope
learned that the hard way...
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On September 10 2013 15:12 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 19:49 Mithhaike wrote:
Does BKB stop stone gaze in DOTA2? Is it supposed to stop Stone Gaze in the first place? nope, and nope learned that the hard way...
With enigma, you have to bkb blink black hole behind the medusa in order for it not to get canceled. Of course your allies cannot followup at all.
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On September 09 2013 20:18 Aikin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 19:16 TheYango wrote:On September 09 2013 19:04 Andr3 wrote:
Some people like to get a point in stats before ulti at 10-11 but imo that's not good anymore, Presence used to give -2 armor and SF has always been a squishy hero that's why stats were sometimes picked before aura. But the thing is that since then SF has gotten buffs to his ms/agi and to his other spells. Stats just don't cut it anymore.
He means Stats instead of rank 2-4 aura I believe. Presence has only been buffed at the 1st rank, ranks 2-4 are still only -1 armor each. Though one thing to keep in mind is that -armor is stronger the closer you bring someone to 0, so rank 2/3/4 only giving -1 armor each is somewhat deceptive in making you think that they are equal. Taking someone from 3 armor to 2 armor is a greater damage increase than taking them from 4 armor to 3 armor. I thought -amor doesn´t have diminishing returns until you get to -amor? Isn´t it 1 amor = 6% ehp ? At least for physical attacks. Show nested quote +
The 'Effective Hit Points', or EHP, of a hero is the amount of damage a hero is able to sustain (before damage reductions). From this, it can be concluded that each extra point of armor increases the EHP of a hero by a constant 6%. This allows heroes survivability to grow exponentially with armor. By contrast, strength or raw HP items scale linearly. This is one of the main reasons why Agility heroes scale well and are often more survivable than Strength heroes late game. This observation briefly popularized Slardar and Dazzle.
From liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Armor
Each positive armor is 6% more ehp relative to 0 base armor. Conversely, negative armor, if I remember correctly, is 6% more damage, so 16 and 2/3 positive armor means you have twice as many hp (take half as much damage), and 16 and 2/3 negative armor means you take twice as much damage (which is fairer than having -100% ehp).
Because of this, -armor is maximized when it reflects around 0. So the most effective use of -6 armor armor is going from 3 to -3. I'll have to double check, but that's how it is in civ iv which uses a similar system.
Edit: it should follows from jensen's inequality or just general convexity, with positive -armor x component and negative -armor component y,
(1+.06*x) / (1 / (1+.06*y)) = (1+.06*x) * (1+.06*y) >= 1+.06*(x+y)
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United States47024 Posts
On September 10 2013 15:52 igotmyown wrote:
Because of this, -armor is maximized when it reflects around 0. So the most effective use of -6 armor armor is going from 3 to -3. I'll have to double check, but that's how it is in civ iv which uses a similar system.
It's different in DotA 2 because the formula for negative armor is different from DotA 1.
Though 3->-3 is pretty close, the highest is actually 4->-2 if we're only counting integer armor values.
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No, I mean dota1/wc3 is completely non-applicable because they use a completely non-intuitive exponential formula for -armor. Whereas dota2/civ make a lot more sense. As I said, -100/6 armor means double damage.
So unless I'm doing it wrong, 4 to 2 is
1.24*1.12 = 1.3888, which should by convexity be less than
1.18*1.18= 1.3924.
Arithmetic mean-geometric mean inequality corollaries state that
x*y is maximized when x = y
in this case, (1+.06*x)*(1+.06*y) = 1+.06*(x+y)+x*y, so this is maximized when x=y.
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United States47024 Posts
nm yeah you're right, I screwed myself up rounding in places I shouldn't have
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EPT
