EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 592
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
Overall, I don't think that you could get enough out of an offlane invoker to justify the pick, it just relies too much on the enemies failing to realize what you are doing/ how they can punish you. Offlaners are mostly designed to work even if they are shut down hard. Invoker is the contrary. | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 02 2013 08:28 RageCommodore wrote: My question would be - How the hell do you do anything vs Ghost Scepter Huskar as a Support that has no physical dmg (primary revolving around fights, I have resolved to tp'ing out the moment I see him ganking me atm)? force staff and general good play. Seeing him coming, being somewhere useful for your team, not in the middle of no where, ect. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8914 Posts
On September 02 2013 08:28 RageCommodore wrote: My question would be - How the hell do you do anything vs Ghost Scepter Huskar as a Support that has no physical dmg (primary revolving around fights, I have resolved to tp'ing out the moment I see him ganking me atm)? if he catches you alone you cant do anything. unless you have items or youre like lion or something and you can disable him forever. On September 02 2013 08:24 RageCommodore wrote: Invoker on any lane other than mid is pretty hard to justify. Yes you could make it work in the right circumstances, but those often mean that you would have won the laning stage anyways, since it implies that nobody would ever gank him in his sidelane. If the lane he's facing is solo (rare in pubs) and he isn't losing it hard, any competent team will gank the shit out of him until hes too afraid to leave his T1 tower. Trilane or Dual Invoker is no option. Overall, I don't think that you could get enough out of an offlane invoker to justify the pick, it just relies too much on the enemies failing to realize what you are doing/ how they can punish you. Offlaners are mostly designed to work even if they are shut down hard. Invoker is the contrary. safe lane invoker is legit. if you can get him a 1v1 matchup its exactly the same as him being mid, except the opponent doesnt have access to runes. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
i had a sub 10min boots blink | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8914 Posts
you can get tranqs and blink at 9mins if you get good spawns or boots bottle blink at around 8. bottle is faster but you need to use the crow, or take a rune if youre on radiant you can get it at 7mins if you get trolls | ||
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Cyx.
Canada806 Posts
On September 02 2013 09:54 evilfatsh1t wrote: safe lane invoker is legit. if you can get him a 1v1 matchup its exactly the same as him being mid, except the opponent doesnt have access to runes. Pretty much what I was about to say - saying you're more likely to be ganked on a sidelane than you are in mid implies you're not playing against a competent team, so you will probably be okay no matter what ^^ As long as you have a 1v1 matchup you're going to be fine. Against bad players, you'll be fine no matter what, and against good players, you'll have a rougher time mid than you would in safe lane (support rotation is WAY easier which invoker has a really hard time against). | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
http://dotabuff.com/players/85732420 my question is... what exactly is the thought process behind his build (arcanes -> blink -> euls -> eblade) arcanes/blink are obvious, the ghost scepter makes sense but what exactly does eblade/euls do? is there some combo that im not seeing here? | ||
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StoRm_res
Switzerland891 Posts
On September 02 2013 14:24 synapse wrote: so we all know mr pirate the player of sand king right http://dotabuff.com/players/85732420 my question is... what exactly is the thought process behind his build (arcanes -> blink -> euls -> eblade) arcanes/blink are obvious, the ghost scepter makes sense but what exactly does eblade/euls do? is there some combo that im not seeing here? you can use euls to buy you the time to channel your ult then eblade and stun him for a killer combo :D | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Playing "seriously" would usually entail a follow-up of team support items, but it's pubs, so whatever. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On September 02 2013 10:49 evilfatsh1t wrote: boots blink at 10mins is pretty slow you can get tranqs and blink at 9mins if you get good spawns or boots bottle blink at around 8. bottle is faster but you need to use the crow, or take a rune if youre on radiant you can get it at 7mins if you get trolls yes, against bot, now feel free to do it against decent players | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
On September 02 2013 12:03 Cyx. wrote: Pretty much what I was about to say - saying you're more likely to be ganked on a sidelane than you are in mid implies you're not playing against a competent team, so you will probably be okay no matter what ^^ As long as you have a 1v1 matchup you're going to be fine. Against bad players, you'll be fine no matter what, and against good players, you'll have a rougher time mid than you would in safe lane (support rotation is WAY easier which invoker has a really hard time against). I disagree. Basically the only lane where he would be relatively okay is as solo safelane (he talked about offlane invoker), and as a lane Invoker you are NOT guaranteed a 1v1 matchup. I didnt say he was more likely to be ganked in the sidelane, just that the chances that he will get anything on an offlane are really bad. In other words, having a lane Invoker is ultra greedy. You dont just want to get XP on Invoker, you want FARM as well, but how can you do that when the creepwave is one kilometer away from you tower ON THE OFFLANE? You dont. You sta the fuck behind your tower which means you only get something when the other guy pushes. Apart from that, Invoker doesn't really "win much 1v1 matchups. Yes he can kill SF in lane with cold snap, but how many other lanes does he win? Having a solo matchup in OFFLANE also implies that there is either an offensive tri or a jungler (but who would run a dual offensive lane and a solo safe in a pub - i mean it would be the epitome of badness in this circumstance), which you will probably see in 1/20 of your games if you're VH, less if you're not. You cant force a 1v1 in AP. You can in CM, but only if you pick a monstrously weak defensive tri/ dual with jungler that the enemy cant resist to trilane, but then the Invoker pick makes absolutely no sense because he's also a passive hero that has no answer to pressure. Your mid would basically have to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, and if HE gets a bad mid matchup (think QoP/OD/other superstrong mids), then you have no cameback. Please explain me how this works in your head, because I just can't see it. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8914 Posts
in pubs then offlane is going to be hard but we already clarified that at the start. the reason we said that sidelane invoker still works in 1v1 matchups is because you ruled it out completely | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On September 02 2013 10:49 evilfatsh1t wrote: boots blink at 10mins is pretty slow you can get tranqs and blink at 9mins if you get good spawns or boots bottle blink at around 8. bottle is faster but you need to use the crow, or take a rune if youre on radiant you can get it at 7mins if you get trolls Can you explain step by step how you do this? I've had some trouble in the first couple lvls at bat in the jungle | ||
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
I'm not saying that you can't do it, just that it's most likely not working very well/ worse than other offlane options that don't have to deal with the no escape/slow MS problem of Invoker. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8914 Posts
On September 02 2013 19:56 zezamer wrote: Can you explain step by step how you do this? I've had some trouble in the first couple lvls at bat in the jungle get firefly lvl 1. kill small camp with firefly and take as little damage as possible (dont burn all the trees down, make a path and hide behind them so the creeps start walking around or something). stack big camp. kill small camp again and get lvl 2. stack big camp once more then clear it with napalm and firefly. the rest is pretty repetitive. for tranqs start with boots tango and branch. and if youre in radiant stack the middle hard camp once you get lvl 2 firefly. then just go around all 3 camps in the middle with firefly while napalming everything | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On September 02 2013 08:24 RageCommodore wrote: Invoker on any lane other than mid is pretty hard to justify. Yes you could make it work in the right circumstances, but those often mean that you would have won the laning stage anyways, since it implies that nobody would ever gank him in his sidelane. If the lane he's facing is solo (rare in pubs) and he isn't losing it hard, any competent team will gank the shit out of him until hes too afraid to leave his T1 tower. Trilane or Dual Invoker is no option. Overall, I don't think that you could get enough out of an offlane invoker to justify the pick, it just relies too much on the enemies failing to realize what you are doing/ how they can punish you. Offlaners are mostly designed to work even if they are shut down hard. Invoker is the contrary. Go play support quas invoker with good setup and enjoy your kills. Whenever I play invoker, I go support quas. Too much fun. | ||
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Tuco
China200 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On September 02 2013 20:07 evilfatsh1t wrote: if its a 1v1 why do you need vision? whos going to gank you? if the mid leaves his lane you will know and can back up a bit. otherwise their supports have to walk the whole map or buy a tp, and even then you could see them coming. offlane carries more risk obviously, but if the enemy really commits to ganking you it wont matter which lane youre in, you will die 1v1s are highly different depending on who is safelane and who is offlane. A lot of matchup that would technically be even shift towards the safelaner under those circumstances. A very classy example would be Bear vs Weaver. If the Bear is offlane the Weaver has an edge because he can bully him out early. If the Bear is safelane he has an edge because he is likely to hit crucial levels before the Weaver can touch him and work from there. Invoker will have similar issues because any kind of lane dominator that has a threat of zoning him early (e.g. QoP or Weaver) have that advantage amplified if they're in the safelane and he's in the offlane. Mid or with him safelane there is simply much less space to abuse that advantage unless lanecontrol gets screwed up hard. | ||
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