Generally that's as a 6th item in addition to AC.

Butterfly on Strength carries is very cost-inefficient, but very slot-efficient due to the extremely high value of attack speed and Evasion to them at that point in the game. On the Strength carries that would get it, it's basically a 6th item to fill your last slot.

Comeh

United States18919 Posts

July 23 2013 20:09 GMT

#10723

On July 24 2013 04:55 TheYango wrote:
Generally that's as a 6th item in addition to AC.

Butterfly on Strength carries is very cost-inefficient, but very slot-efficient due to the extremely high value of attack speed and Evasion to them at that point in the game. On the Strength carries that would get it, it's basically a 6th item to fill your last slot.

Agreed - I guess I'm voicing a lot of others' opinions on Butterfly on Tiny / Alchy who prioritize it a little higher (like 4th / 5th item).

Figured it was worth mentioning though.

Jonoman92

United States9111 Posts

July 23 2013 20:51 GMT

#10724

In the competitive meta game shadow demon (along with visage) seem to be frequent picks for support. Why say, is shadow shaman never used? I ask this out of curiosity because I always feel far less effective playing SD than shadow shaman, though I play SD terribly for sure.

PassiveAce

United States18076 Posts

July 23 2013 20:54 GMT

#10725

I love shadow shaman but I hate playing him as a 5.
Very fun hero to take to mid.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

July 23 2013 20:59 GMT

#10726

On July 24 2013 05:51 Jonoman92 wrote:
In the competitive meta game shadow demon (along with visage) seem to be frequent picks for support. Why say, is shadow shaman never used? I ask this out of curiosity because I always feel far less effective playing SD than shadow shaman, though I play SD terribly for sure.

My understanding is SS needs more levels and farm to be effective. SD's poison is really effective & cheap harass, disruption is a great disable and life saver along with nuke, and Soul Catcher & Demonic Purge provide a lot of utility. A SD can sit back and drop those spells and have contributed greatly to a fight, even if he dies. None of the spells are particularly mana intensive either so SD can skimp on items.

SS on the other hand has spells that really place him in harms way (shackles especially) and he needs a huge mana pool to drop his full combo. Only his nuke and wards are useful at >600 range. Wards can just be free money if the SS is underleveled as well.

Visage just puts out a ton of disabling & burst damage power while also being tanky and having scouting utility.

EDIT: Also demonic purge can slow through BKB.

Fik-cz

Czech Republic43 Posts

July 23 2013 21:14 GMT

#10727

On July 24 2013 00:04 SKYFISH_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

slark's dark pact is effectively a purge that dispels most shit that are cast on him, if that was what you were asking

No, I mean: Slark and me as rubic we are on same team. If slark pounce some1 and I wait a bit and want to follow up with lift up, but cast it before pounce end. When pounce end, our target is free while he have to be still for some time lifted. Any1 know if this is bug or have to be this way? Happened to me 2 times.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

July 23 2013 21:17 GMT

#10728

There's a stipulation on pounce:
(moving more than 100 distance away in less than 0.03 seconds will break the leash)

I think the drop from lift is probably exceeding that distance causing pounce to break. As Rubick you should just be letting the target drop naturally or not lifting until pounce is near ending.

igotmyown

United States4291 Posts

July 23 2013 21:28 GMT

#10729

shadow demon's completely different from shadow shaman/visage. He's mainly to protect your allies, and act as a setup.

Shadow shaman has multiple disables, but he lacks cast range and doesn't have an almost instant cast animation like rubick. People prefer nyx against split pushers, and sometimes lion (high damage with ult, doesn't need to channel, though still has cast range problems).

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

July 23 2013 21:31 GMT

#10730

Hex is actually instant cast, because all hexes are hard-coded to be instant-cast. But yes, low range is probably his biggest issue which makes him very weak to facerush heroes, as well as generally being a questionable teamfight hero in general against so many things that punish low range/low mobility heroes in the game.

BurningSera

Ireland19621 Posts

July 23 2013 21:49 GMT

#10731

Rhasta is (too) high maintenance as a support, and his horrendous starting movement speed. His glorious days of solo mid simply are long gone.

I dont think even the teams with greedy support playstyle would dare to touch rhasta, the shaman is too expensive T_T while if they really run him and he would be arguably one of the strongest supports in mid game, extremely powerful before the oppo cores got their BKBs/forcing the oppo cores to make BKBs, but required some facerush line up to make it work too (NS comes to mind but who would run NS mid nowadays).

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

July 23 2013 22:29 GMT

#10732

shaman really needs levels. doesnt really fit in competitive meta atm. in pubs hes just fine, them wards are so strong now.

Mataza

Germany5364 Posts

July 23 2013 22:33 GMT

#10733

Rhasta is simply said not good as a support(assuming a support is a 4 or 5 position).
He needs a lot of gold. Dagger is 2k, euls is 2.7k, alternatives to either are about as expensive or more expensive. You can't expect to have these items at any reasonable time as a "support".

Also I stand to saying cuirass is good on any carry that needs moar dps, unless you already have a cuirass in team. Just most need certain utility, like Manta or basher/Abyssal.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

July 23 2013 22:40 GMT

#10734

Shaman as a 4th/5th position hero was actually extremely common as a competitive support in 6.73 and 6.74 (support SS was frequently picked at TI2). It's just that certain heroes that became increasingly common after those versions make playing Shaman support a nightmare, such as BH and NS in 6.75, and NA in 6.76 until now.

Eul's is by and large a pub item on that hero. A support Shaman is only really expected to have Arcanes + Urn + either Dagger or Mek depending on the teams. Stuff after that like Ghost Scepter is standard support luxury. He needs levels pretty badly, but item-dependence is not overly restricting for him as a support.

He's not fundamentally bad as a support, it's just that the current hero pool and way of playing the game make him really awkward (he's also really bad in trilanes because of his low range, low survivability, and lack of any real fighting power at levels 1/2).

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

July 23 2013 22:41 GMT

#10735

i almost always only get ac on str heroes and most of the time im not the core carry. if i was the core str carry, id get some other item instead like crit or mkb.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

July 23 2013 22:43 GMT

#10736

On July 24 2013 07:41 aintz wrote:
i almost always only get ac on str heroes and most of the time im not the core carry. if i was the core str carry, id get some other item instead like crit or mkb.

I don't think AC is ever competing with Crit or MKB on a Strength hero because Crit and MKB are +damage items while AC is giving your Armor+Attack Speed. A Strength carry still needs one major attack speed item for his lategame damage, and most still need armor as well, excepting a few that have high base armor and agi growth or have armor-granting skills.

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

July 23 2013 22:48 GMT

#10737

ya i get ac after but most time the game is already over. and i think the attackspeed on treads+ drums is sufficient in early/mid game and getting some damage/bkb is more important as the core carry. only exception would be doom i tend to get ac before damage on him cuz eating a wolf is like getting a damage item.

igotmyown

United States4291 Posts

July 23 2013 22:48 GMT

#10738

Although if they buff his agh wards enough, he might be good mid again (say they did a 1000 damage, then of course he's good mid). The question is if the last patch was enough.

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

July 23 2013 22:52 GMT

#10739

probably not enough for him to be in competitve dota. but in high level pubs id play him as mid or 4 (i dont play 5 for anyone)

Mataza

Germany5364 Posts

July 23 2013 23:18 GMT

#10740

You don't play dota at all, for at least a whole month. According to your own explanations.

Maybe I should emphasize more that cuirass is a lot like butterfly. There are still dozens of situations where you wouldn't get a butterfly either.
Anyway, the question asked was just rule of thumbs for lategame damage items. Survivability items are no doubt almost as important as damage items to carrying a game to victory.