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This video by Dendi emphasises how important creep blocking is. He claims that the battle in mid can be decided by the creep block alone.
I will start you off with a tip I just picked up; I'm not sure how aware people are of this method but it is very powerful:
If you double tap the hotkey for your hero and hold it down, the camera will follow your hero(!)
You can take advantage of this while creep blocking by clicking small areas diagonally away from you without having to scroll the screen. You can even press S while doing this and it will not break the pan.
OK, I do not profess to be an expert so I will open this up for people who can impart their wisdom on the rest of us.
I'll start with a couple of questions:
When is it correct to let a creep past? Should this be the archer?
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United States47024 Posts
Creep blocking is super important for mid. I get annoyed when I see our mid waiting for the 0 minute rune rather than blocking creeps mid--it demonstrates a poor understanding of the game and I don't have a lot of hope on him winning mid if he doesn't understand the importance of blocking.
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When is it correct to let a creep past? Should this be the archer?
i dont know mid at all so idk
but i do know is very important to do it in offlane, and you should always try to let the archer creep go ahead yes
but remember that their carry can just tank your creepwave untill your archer creep get behind again
a melee creep can go ahead too, it will still push your lane back, but again if their carry is decent he can deny his lane "advantage" with few hits (no exp for you)
[OT]special mention: clockwerk cogs are just awesome for blocking xd
lone druid and gondar can pull creepwaves safely
earthshacker can block the lane just like clockwerk [/OT]
this was my humble opinion.
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In my experience in most cases, a too good block isn't actually good in the long run. Say you have two even heroes and you do a superb block, your wave is directly on the edge of the hill.
Looks good, you can easily farm, the enemy mid can't really harass you and he has a miss chance as far as last hitting goes. But the problem is that if you get really unlucky the enemies' long range creep will miss most attacks and therefore you will push the lane, losing the creep balance.
So always letting one creep forward is the way to go, in my experience it doesn't even matter much but if you get your long-range creep forward you'll have an easier time controlling the lane.
I only do a full block without letting any creeps onwards with SF/pudge because those few creeps are so important for the souls and for the fast bottle(as pudge).
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I wish creepblocking was as 'easy' as it was in dota1. Anytime i go play dota1 i get surprised by how much simpler i feel creepblocking is.
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^I don't feel much of a difference?
I recently played some dota1 and it's the same. The only thing that's different is that using stop command is somewhat more effective in dota1, but in dota2 you just zig-zag left and right and you still have the same block.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2013 04:39 Andr3 wrote:
^I don't feel much of a difference?
I recently played some dota1 and it's the same. The only thing that's different is that using stop command is somewhat more effective in dota1, but in dota2 you just zig-zag left and right and you still have the same block.
Creep pathing is generally a bit clumsier in DotA 1--they get stuck on each other and have more inefficiencies in how they choose their paths, so it's easier to block really aggressively.
The easiest example to see of this is at the Scourge second tower. In DotA 1, it was well known that if you blocked the creep wave too hard as Scourge, one of the creeps would pathfind in a screwy way and just go around you and the tower, messing up your block. This can still happen in DotA 2, but it's much less likely. The creep pathing is somewhat smoother and the case where the pathfinding algorithm takes that roundabout path is much rarer.
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Does anyone have advice on the specific micro technique for blocking mid? I seem to be terribly inept at it, my block always slips between the T2 and T1 tower. Any advice on how precisely to direct my hero to pull off a clean block?
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I always block when starting with a normal build (I.e 3 branches + tangos, bottle rush).. but if you're playing AR or something and start with a bottle, would you prefer creep blocking, or trying to bottle a rune? Considering some heroes certain runes are free FB once you hit level 2 or 3, I'm just not sure. Or even bottling a haste basically guarantees you the 2 minute rune as well, etc.
Sorry for the noobness :D
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I'd prefer creepblocking myself.
You could guess wrong with the rune, it could be a rune that wont benefit you and you wont get anything from the bottle charges seeing that it should already be at max.
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On February 23 2013 07:04 Leyra wrote:
I always block when starting with a normal build (I.e 3 branches + tangos, bottle rush).. but if you're playing AR or something and start with a bottle, would you prefer creep blocking, or trying to bottle a rune? Considering some heroes certain runes are free FB once you hit level 2 or 3, I'm just not sure. Or even bottling a haste basically guarantees you the 2 minute rune as well, etc.
Sorry for the noobness :D
Your bottle is already full and that's a large reason to even get the rune. Obviously, part of it is to block the other guy from getting it and killing your teammates, but if he runs off at lvl 1, great.
In short, you should still block the creeps. If you play mid properly, a good creep block's repercussions can last into level 4 or so and by then the lane is usually won or lost.
edit: One thing to understand about dota is that there is pretty much an exception to every rule, and that includes everything I just said.
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On February 23 2013 09:07 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 07:04 Leyra wrote:
I always block when starting with a normal build (I.e 3 branches + tangos, bottle rush).. but if you're playing AR or something and start with a bottle, would you prefer creep blocking, or trying to bottle a rune? Considering some heroes certain runes are free FB once you hit level 2 or 3, I'm just not sure. Or even bottling a haste basically guarantees you the 2 minute rune as well, etc.
Sorry for the noobness :D Your bottle is already full and that's a large reason to even get the rune. Obviously, part of it is to block the other guy from getting it and killing your teammates, but if he runs off at lvl 1, great. In short, you should still block the creeps. If you play mid properly, a good creep block's repercussions can last into level 4 or so and by then the lane is usually won or lost. edit: One thing to understand about dota is that there is pretty much an exception to every rule, and that includes everything I just said.
Even if you did random, goin bottle first is pretty bad. You would be better served to take your usual items and get the bottle after 2-3 last hits. Bottle first is bad in almost every case, but as stated there is an exception to every rule, I just dont know what that is in this case.
When u do go bottle first you can easily block and then go take the rune or you can ask a team mate to do your block for you. Not blocking and bottling a rune will more often than not lose you the lane, despite having the rune. You've basically paid 600g to bottle a rune that might be useless and now you can't use your bottle for regen without using the rune. If you started with proper starting items and then bought your bottle you get to use the charges before bottling the rune.
Invent slots are a resource and going bottle first means you are wasting 5 slots, when random you are still probably wasting 3-4 and you have less regen and less stats. Bottle charges give less hp than a salve and around the same mana as 3 clarities, which costs a total of around 250g. So you could get that, plus 3 gg branches (leaving a slot open for when u buy bottle) for a total of around 409g leaving you only 3-4 last hits from your bottle(3 clarities is probably too much for most heros hence the 3-4 because for most 2 will be more than enough now ur starting items only cost 356g or so) , which is one creep wave. Explain to me again why you went bottle first?
as for letting creeps past, ideally you want the ranged one as it has higher dps can will mean the lane pushes towards ur tower faster but any creep will do. The idea is that because it is so far ahead, all the enemy creeps will focus it, causing the lane to push toward your tower slightly and hopefully keep your creeps on the high ground, giving you the advantage.
The trick to bottling runes is to push the lane out towards your opponents tower at around 1:40 (3:40, 5:40 etc) so that its pushed when you need to go to the rune spot. If the lane is pushed to ur opponents side of the river, you have vision of your opponent but he doesn't of you in many cases but also you can go get the rune unhampered while he has to give away his intentions to get it. If warded (so you dont have to guess where it spawned), you should never miss a rune if you push out your lane at the right times.
Also, when your lane is pushed because you didn't block or your auto attacked etc, your opponent can be much more aggressive as you have a very long way to run to get to the safety of your tower while your opponent only needs to take a few steps backwards to their safe zone. If your lane gets pushed too far, start attacking your own creeps once they are at 50% hp so the lane pushes back towards your tower. After all, what is the point in having a DD or haste rune if your opponent can take 3 steps back and be completely safe?
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On February 23 2013 12:49 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 09:07 danl9rm wrote:On February 23 2013 07:04 Leyra wrote:
I always block when starting with a normal build (I.e 3 branches + tangos, bottle rush).. but if you're playing AR or something and start with a bottle, would you prefer creep blocking, or trying to bottle a rune? Considering some heroes certain runes are free FB once you hit level 2 or 3, I'm just not sure. Or even bottling a haste basically guarantees you the 2 minute rune as well, etc.
Sorry for the noobness :D Your bottle is already full and that's a large reason to even get the rune. Obviously, part of it is to block the other guy from getting it and killing your teammates, but if he runs off at lvl 1, great. In short, you should still block the creeps. If you play mid properly, a good creep block's repercussions can last into level 4 or so and by then the lane is usually won or lost. edit: One thing to understand about dota is that there is pretty much an exception to every rule, and that includes everything I just said. Explain to me again why you went bottle first?
No courier.
I tend to use the method of moving sideways to block, I find it works better for me than stop spam does.
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On February 23 2013 15:42 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 12:49 emythrel wrote:On February 23 2013 09:07 danl9rm wrote:On February 23 2013 07:04 Leyra wrote:
I always block when starting with a normal build (I.e 3 branches + tangos, bottle rush).. but if you're playing AR or something and start with a bottle, would you prefer creep blocking, or trying to bottle a rune? Considering some heroes certain runes are free FB once you hit level 2 or 3, I'm just not sure. Or even bottling a haste basically guarantees you the 2 minute rune as well, etc.
Sorry for the noobness :D Your bottle is already full and that's a large reason to even get the rune. Obviously, part of it is to block the other guy from getting it and killing your teammates, but if he runs off at lvl 1, great. In short, you should still block the creeps. If you play mid properly, a good creep block's repercussions can last into level 4 or so and by then the lane is usually won or lost. edit: One thing to understand about dota is that there is pretty much an exception to every rule, and that includes everything I just said. Explain to me again why you went bottle first? No courier. I tend to use the method of moving sideways to block, I find it works better for me than stop spam does.
Then buy the courier yourself. If you are mid and no one buys it, you should always have the 150g yourself to get it. Sure it will slow ur bottle a bit more, another creep wave, but its still better than going bottle first. I hate the attitute of players that buying wards/courier is everyone else's job. Going bottle first instead of just buying the courier is handicapping yourself because you are too stubborn to spend 150g, you need the courier more than the bottle and your team needs the courier much much more than you need the bottle. Not having your bottle at 2 min rarely loses you a game, not having a courier until 15 mins in to the game will.
Yes the supports SHOULD buy it but if they don't, just man/woman up and buy it yourself. the courier pays for itself pretty quickly and 150g isn't going to be the difference between a win or loss, but not having a courier for the first 5-6 minutes can be. I often buy the courier when i'm playing mid just because its easier to buy it myself than to shout at the supports for not buying it.
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So if the "normal" bottle rush build is tango + 3 branches, explain to me why going bottle first is bad? cause you can afford tango + 3 brances + bottle? :o When randoming, I mean.
That being said, I guess I'll stick to creep blocking then
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On February 24 2013 15:27 Leyra wrote:
So if the "normal" bottle rush build is tango + 3 branches, explain to me why going bottle first is bad? cause you can afford tango + 3 brances + bottle? :o
That being said, I guess I'll stick to creep blocking then
It doesnt matter that much regarding the starting items (bottle first or not), it is more about the player know exactly what to do with the items. Randomed gold mid has significant advantage over a mid picker on item wise anyway, fyi it is a common courtesy for randomed player to get a cour for the team if he wanted to go mid in chinese pub.
If you started with a bottle then you can harass very aggresively because you can bottle the min2 rune, or you can quickly spam spells to get all the last hit+harass to get a fly cour for bottle crowing. You can even pull your cour with you at T1 so you can harass like mad at the beginning and let it go back refill while your support immediately up the courier. It all depends on your plans.
Personally I prefer stats items over early bottle if i randomed, better get a cour or a set of ward. And blocking is super critical on going mid but the key point is that the blocking creeps helps you on last hitting, you can purposely not blocking the creep wave if you knew the oppo will block it so the wave will push towards to his high ground so you can use the pushed wave to dive him with tryhard ganking at the start or if you were an orb walker hero or you simply want to screw up his last hit (he is fighting last hit with his tower) or you want to make sure he won't leave the lane for rune at min2/4.
It all depends on your plans.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2013 15:27 Leyra wrote:
So if the "normal" bottle rush build is tango + 3 branches, explain to me why going bottle first is bad? cause you can afford tango + 3 brances + bottle? :o When randoming, I mean.
That being said, I guess I'll stick to creep blocking then
The idea is that Bottle at any time before 2 minutes is more or less equivalent because you'd still be able to have the Bottle for the 2 minute rune. 3 Branch+Tango is sort of a "worst case I still have 2 minute Bottle".
When you start with random gold, the same paradigm applies, even if you want to rush bottle, you'd still start with as much stats as you can to still guarantee 2 minute Bottle.
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On February 24 2013 17:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 15:27 Leyra wrote:
So if the "normal" bottle rush build is tango + 3 branches, explain to me why going bottle first is bad? cause you can afford tango + 3 brances + bottle? :o When randoming, I mean.
That being said, I guess I'll stick to creep blocking then The idea is that Bottle at any time before 2 minutes is more or less equivalent because you'd still be able to have the Bottle for the 2 minute rune. 3 Branch+Tango is sort of a "worst case I still have 2 minute Bottle". When you start with random gold, the same paradigm applies, even if you want to rush bottle, you'd still start with as much stats as you can to still guarantee 2 minute Bottle.
That answer makes a lot of sense, thanks.
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Going back to blocking - please never block creeps when you go 3man easy lane 
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
On February 27 2013 00:56 KosQ wrote:Going back to blocking - please never block creeps when you go 3man easy lane
Easiest way to deal with a random ally that does this anyway is to go ahead of him to the lane and tank the enemy wave just out of range of your tower for a few seconds until your own wave reaches them.
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On February 27 2013 01:10 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 00:56 KosQ wrote:Going back to blocking - please never block creeps when you go 3man easy lane Easiest way to deal with a random ally that does this anyway is to go ahead of him to the lane and tank the enemy wave just out of range of your tower for a few seconds until your own wave reaches them.
Well said.
To expand on this, if you see a block with the ranged creep let through, try to draw the ranged creep's aggro until the melees catch up.
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On February 27 2013 00:56 KosQ wrote:Going back to blocking - please never block creeps when you go 3man easy lane
I usually block easy lane with 1 melee slip through at the beginning if I think my opponents will block hard lane. If they don't block I need to auto attack 3-4 times to keep lane balance but it won't go in tower (cause the 1 melee I let slip through will tank) and if they do block their creeps start pushing towards my tower after wave 1.
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Can anyone elaborate more on the best technique to creep block?
Do you move side to side or use stop command? I found the double tap and hold tip from the OP pretty useful, thx
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On February 23 2013 02:17 TheYango wrote:
Creep blocking is super important for mid. I get annoyed when I see our mid waiting for the 0 minute rune rather than blocking creeps mid--it demonstrates a poor understanding of the game and I don't have a lot of hope on him winning mid if he doesn't understand the importance of blocking.
Hey, I'm one of the "poor understanding" players that probably upset guys like this when I play. So I get that in mid you need to do it to have the high ground advantage, but is there a reason to do it on top or bottom lane? Without the high ground advantage, the only thing I can imagine doing it for is to avoid laning under the enemy tower, but what if I'm playing a pusher or lane support (PL, Dazzle, ect). Can someone enlighten me?
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On March 08 2013 22:44 DavoS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 02:17 TheYango wrote:
Creep blocking is super important for mid. I get annoyed when I see our mid waiting for the 0 minute rune rather than blocking creeps mid--it demonstrates a poor understanding of the game and I don't have a lot of hope on him winning mid if he doesn't understand the importance of blocking. Hey, I'm one of the "poor understanding" players that probably upset guys like this when I play. So I get that in mid you need to do it to have the high ground advantage, but is there a reason to do it on top or bottom lane? Without the high ground advantage, the only thing I can imagine doing it for is to avoid laning under the enemy tower, but what if I'm playing a pusher or lane support (PL, Dazzle, ect). Can someone enlighten me?
Whenever you are the offlane solo, blocking creeps properly is incredibly important and can dramatically increase the xp you get against subpar players/carries/supports.
With regards to the offlane, higher tier players will often be blocking to make sure that the range creep runs ahead of the melee creeps, meaning that when the creeps encounter each other, his range creep will die first. Since the range creep does the majority of DPS to opposing creeps, this will result in the creep wave pushing towards the offlaner's tower resulting in easily secured exp/safety (since it becomes harder for the opposing support to zone you out).
In terms of safelane farm, it is not recommended to block because it will force enemy creeps into your tower range, which will kill them faster resulting in a pushed and more dangerous lane. However, it's important to remember to stop offlaner shenanigans I've mentioned above. E.g. Quickly checking how the enemy block is going and tanking the range creep appropriately. Few things irk me more than players who stand in base 30 seconds for no good reason in pre-game time.
Also, if you play a carry/support there's no way you'd want to push a tower that early until the first siege creep anyways at 3:30(?).
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What are the advantages of creep blocking in mid? Personally the only advantage that I can see is making the creeps more on your side of the lane, but how is that supposed to extremely advantageous?
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I have to disagree with this notion that grabbing the 0 minute rune is a bad idea as solo mid, under certain circumstances. Obviously you should only be checking if the rune spawns top, as running all the fucking way to bot rune and back will cost you the lane. My most successful mid hero is zeus, and even with his relatively slow movement speed, I find that i can grab the 0 minute top rune and be back in time to block my wave successfully. This is especially true if you're really lucky and nab an illusion rune at start, since your dopplegangers assist tremendously with blocking the wave. If a haste, invis or regen rune spawns, i usually just leave it be for my teammates to grab. (Sometimes I'll get lucky and grab it myself upon getting my bottle.) DD rune helps a lot too though. You should have no problem denying every creep in the first wave as well as last hitting.
For reference, I always go 3 GG branch and tango to start as zeus and save up for my bottle.
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On March 09 2013 01:44 Baggage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 22:44 DavoS wrote:On February 23 2013 02:17 TheYango wrote:
Creep blocking is super important for mid. I get annoyed when I see our mid waiting for the 0 minute rune rather than blocking creeps mid--it demonstrates a poor understanding of the game and I don't have a lot of hope on him winning mid if he doesn't understand the importance of blocking. Hey, I'm one of the "poor understanding" players that probably upset guys like this when I play. So I get that in mid you need to do it to have the high ground advantage, but is there a reason to do it on top or bottom lane? Without the high ground advantage, the only thing I can imagine doing it for is to avoid laning under the enemy tower, but what if I'm playing a pusher or lane support (PL, Dazzle, ect). Can someone enlighten me? Whenever you are the offlane solo, blocking creeps properly is incredibly important and can dramatically increase the xp you get against subpar players/carries/supports. With regards to the offlane, higher tier players will often be blocking to make sure that the range creep runs ahead of the melee creeps, meaning that when the creeps encounter each other, his range creep will die first. Since the range creep does the majority of DPS to opposing creeps, this will result in the creep wave pushing towards the offlaner's tower resulting in easily secured exp/safety (since it becomes harder for the opposing support to zone you out). In terms of safelane farm, it is not recommended to block because it will force enemy creeps into your tower range, which will kill them faster resulting in a pushed and more dangerous lane. However, it's important to remember to stop offlaner shenanigans I've mentioned above. E.g. Quickly checking how the enemy block is going and tanking the range creep appropriately. Few things irk me more than players who stand in base 30 seconds for no good reason in pre-game time. Also, if you play a carry/support there's no way you'd want to push a tower that early until the first siege creep anyways at 3:30(?).
Thank you! And I'm assuming your creep blocks later in the game are also based on what lane you have and how it's going, or should you just do it once and let things play out normally from there?
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United States47024 Posts
On March 09 2013 09:14 Raisen223 wrote:
What are the advantages of creep blocking in mid? Personally the only advantage that I can see is making the creeps more on your side of the lane, but how is that supposed to extremely advantageous?
1) Creeps closer to your side means its harder to gank you because you can lasthit from closer to your tower
2) High ground miss chance screws up your opponent's lasthits
3) High ground vision denial means your opponent doesn't have vision of you while you have vision of him, meaning he can't see when you're going to lasthit/what creep you're going to lasthit, and allows you to get free harass on him because he doesn't know where you're standing
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For the love of god, I hate when people creep block the easy lane to the point where the first wave equilibrium meets under the tower. Last hitting under towers is a nightmare and there is no god damn reason why you need to block it excessively.
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EPT
