EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 5203
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On April 23 2014 13:54 Acritter wrote: Most heroes are broke with that level of farm. I don't think it's unique to Centaur. I'd argue it's unique to centaur. For one, his farming requirements are extremely low. With just tranquils, a stout, and a maxed nuke you can clear the jungle with relative efficiency. While it isn't enough regen to double edge and sustain indefinitely, it does let you stand there and whack creeps while they take 20-30 damage each time they hit you from that single value point in return. This means it doesn't -really- matter if you started offlane, mid, safelane, or support... you should have the option come midgame to farm something somewhere by raw virtue of the strength of the hero. Typically, this should be the enemy heroes because you have a blink dagger and two nukes... but life doesn't always work this way. Being able to say "Well shit, this ganking thing isn't going to work anymore, I'd better fall back and farm up!" isn't a luxury every ganking hero has. For two, his scaling off strength isn't something to be ignored. He's got something like 75 damage return at level 20 with no items whatsoever. While 75 physical damage return doesn't mean that much to a hero, when you've got several thousand health, it is GOING to take quite a few instances of 76 damage in order to kill him. Add a couple beefy strength items on the dude and you're looking at 100+ damage return values, which clear creep waves literally by accident, and chip towers for free, if they ever bother to hit you. On top of the rest, there's the scaling on his ult. While it isn't itself gamebreaking, starting a fight with your hasted team playing tag with 500-600 damage nukes isn't the worst way to start a battle. For reference - Centaur with those 5 items I mentioned - Skadi, Heart, Cuirass, blink and BoTs - out manfights Luna, Weaver, Medusa, SF, Alchemist, and Broodmother (and I imagine almost any other hero in the game), EVEN IF he tanks the entire Luna ult, takes a fully charged Requiem to the face and as many razes as SF wants, faces medusa's stun and hacks through her mana shield, stands in Alchemist's acid and smashes him through chemical rage, tanks the entirety of Broodmothers' insatiable hunger and incapacitating bite and... well. Weaver and Centaur just mutually agree that those items are retarded on weaver and that it's going to take so much kiting for him to kill Centaur that it isn't worth it. And Centaur does this without using any of his skills. No hoof stomps required, no centaur ults (Though in actual fights vs ranged heroes, obviously he'd have to close the gap somehow post-blink) just pure rightclicking them and letting that, plus damage return do work. Obviously I know that these vacuum duels aren't applicable to any game ever, but on a hero that can walk into your towers and have them kill themselves, not dealing with him isn't an option, and dealing with him is one hell of an imposing feat. So yeah, I'd say having that much strength lategame is unique to Centaur. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
I can't imagine a Luna/SF/Medusa with similar farm losing to Centaur, but can't test atm. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
I'm sure if you took the raw money value of items and gave the luna / SF more sensible items... I.E. give either of them a butterfly over a heart, and replace blink with drums... then you'd probably have a more sensible fight - To a certain extent, I'd think tanky builds would favour the centaur, as the less damage you have the more you have to hit him, and the more damage you do to yourself. In the centaur v centaur test, for example, the damage done by damage return was almost exactly half of the damage done through autos - so 33% of the winning centaurs' damage output was from damage return. Testing actually practical scenarios is more involved than I want to get in to (Because any ranged hero will likely have a BKB and want to kite, though Skadi Blink discourages that), but I thought it was worthy of note that Centaur wins those duels without using abilities, as a show of the hero's strength. Honestly I thought he'd lose the Broodmother duel though. 60% miss chance and 80% lifesteal for 14 seconds... Again, if you gave her a Butterfly or something more practical than a Heart and it might be a different story. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4558 Posts
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
*Luna had Abyssal (Not Activated but bashlord), Satanic (Not activated), B.Fly, Manta (Not Activated) and Treads. Neither hero used an ability or item. Anyway this kind of discussion is idiotic because what kind of situations are these two extremely farmed heroes going to encounter each other solo | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
nice vanilla test tho | ||
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Ru ba
Serbia1812 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
Agree on the retardedness of the discussion though! You could go in circles doing this shit, because you end up with 6 heart centaur vs satanic refresher god knows what else medusa in the least realistic dota battle of heroes in the universe. My point was that centaur can farm in the midgame if given space and is fucking strong with a lot of +str, which are unusual concepts for a position 3ish hero. My point was not that a centaur with like 15k worth of actual combat items out-manfights a luna with 24k worth of combat items without even using his spells. | ||
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calh
537 Posts
I'd imagine a lot of heroes could beat Luna, or almost any carry you choose, if both sides get the same item build that favours the challenger. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
you think they'll dump it on one go? | ||
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Veles
United States3280 Posts
As you said, he only needs tranquils and some time in the jungle to secure his blink. Heroes like clock can't do that, they have to make plays happen. He is situationally played mid/safelane, but he is popular because teams realized you can just throw him offlane and still get most of the benefits. And if cent doesn't get zoned/killed, he can go ham at lvl 6 (with help tping in for ez kills if necessary). | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
It's not like it's a massively long item timing, 12-16mins, game isn't going to be over. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 23 2014 18:17 Kishin2 wrote: How do people build Antimage nowadays? Pretty sure going Battlefury isn't viable for him in the current meta. Maybe Midas or Maelstrom first item into Manta? What kind of reasoning is "Battlefury isn't viable, get Midas+Maelstrom" when Midas+Maelstrom is more gold for worse farming speed on that hero? | ||
TheEmulator
28102 Posts
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On April 23 2014 18:46 TheEmulator wrote: Wait did someone say BF isn't viable on AM anymore... You can't farm so quickly anymore with it, why not take inferior in fights, more expensive items to make up for-- wait. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On April 23 2014 18:50 ahswtini wrote: Maybe he's saying you need to go battle AM in the current meta with maelstrom manta... The thing is (correct me if I'm wrong) that Magina doesn't contribute a whole lot without quite expensive items and even going maels manta won't exactly help you as the game goes late. Maybe with a role change, but then again, he's not exactly a play maker, he just comes and rightclicks. | ||
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Zvenn3n
Sweden1196 Posts
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