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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On April 07 2014 00:33 TheSubtleArt wrote: So everyone says Ember spirit is OP but is there anything to support this?? His pub winrates awful and his pro winrate hovers around 50% as far as I know earth spirit had 45% pub winrate | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
and when it was new it was at 35 ish | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Which is why it's important to look at both pub and pro win rate. A pro win rate obviously wasn't available for Earth Spirit but we knew he was incredible at the highest level of play he was in (i.e. high MMR All Pick), where his win% was way, way higher. Ember, on the other hand, has meh win rates in both the pub and pro scene. He's a slightly too strong hero but nothing ridiculous, and certainly not as good as Lycan. I do think Ember is best in AP high MMR games where teams don't have focused strategy but high individual skill, so in a sense he's OP in the same arena as Earth proved himself to be. However, we also know he can be picked around in a variety of different ways to be nothing too spectacular, whereas I don't think the same could be said for Earth. With all that said, there's a difference between balanced in win% and good balance. PL was never actually that strong a hero and yet everyone moaned because he's shitty to play against. There's a difference between being a ridiculously strong hero and a ridiculous hero, and I think Ember is very much the latter if not too much the former. | ||
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Slomo
Germany7198 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
When PL was strong I believe the hero also had a 50% winrate but that was dramatically higher when Loda played the hero because Alliance played a very strong style suiting to that hero which made it look overpowered because they used it very well. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
edit: Just to clarify, we aren't going to start warning for balance comments since everything is OP in Dota anyway. We're just asking that you don't aggressively argue about it. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 07 2014 02:44 Kipsate wrote: I think its also important to remember that statistics are always skewed by the teams they play. For example(not sure if it is true). Even if competitive teams are 50% with Ember it is possible that some teams who utilize or plays the hero much better have a winrate of 80% with it. When PL was strong I believe the hero also had a 50% winrate but that was dramatically higher when Loda played the hero because Alliance played a very strong style suiting to that hero which made it look overpowered because they used it very well. I think Alliance had a 80% winrate at some point, so it's hard to look at statistics like that. If Loda had a 65% winrate with the hero it would mean it was a bad pick. S4 was 23-2 (92%) with Puck on 6.78, but there was nothing wrong with Puck and Loda had exactly the same winrate with Jugg as he had with PL at that same patch. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8278 Posts
On April 07 2014 02:45 Firebolt145 wrote: While we don't generally moderate 'balance whine' because it's never really been a problem in Dota, these discussions about 'Ember Spirit is OP' 'no he isn't' 'TB is more OP' etc etc have started to become a problem. If you want to discuss heroes being too strong or whatever please keep it constructive. Yeah! Meepo is the most op. Everyone knows that! More seriously I haven't actually seen that many play TB yet for reasons I can't fathom, but he is absolutely insanely powerful, even without much farm he still hits for something like 200dmg ranged at lvl 14 with very high attack speed and illusions.. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
S4 was 23-2 (92%) with Puck on 6.78, but there was nothing wrong with Puck. The reverse of this also holds true as pointed out here. be wary of stats is the lesson. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On April 07 2014 02:44 Kipsate wrote: I think its also important to remember that statistics are always skewed by the teams they play. For example(not sure if it is true). Even if competitive teams are 50% with Ember it is possible that some teams who utilize or plays the hero much better have a winrate of 80% with it. When PL was strong I believe the hero also had a 50% winrate but that was dramatically higher when Loda played the hero because Alliance played a very strong style suiting to that hero which made it look overpowered because they used it very well. Fair point, but I don't know any team has a particularly large modifier in win rate with Ember. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd say the biggest limitation on using stats is the relatively small sample size depending on what specifics you're looking at. All they can really do is support a position rather than entirely justify it. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
Then there are several other pubstom heroes that were nerfed. Barathum or Ursa were never OP in competitive play. The goal of balancing Dota is making it a better game, not a more balanced game, so hero balance is often not the most important thing. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 07 2014 02:50 Excludos wrote: Yeah! Meepo is the most op. Everyone knows that! Techies, Meepo, Arc Warden Obviously all of DotA's most OP heroes are like 3 feet tall. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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Souone
Brazil470 Posts
On April 07 2014 04:44 DrPandaPhD wrote: techies should look like the bomberman guys And kick his mines into people. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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