On February 23 2014 15:01 Ryrmidon wrote: So I still haven't heard a good justification for random gold being in the game
because what kept dota alive after a decade of development isnt the competitiveness but the fun aspect of the game. Random is a high risk high reward strategy in pub that has a lot of educational value to lower skill player. If you care about fairness, there is always captain mode for your competitive blood. And if you want to be a hypocrite and try to blame the system that functioned perfectly for years, you might want to re-examine yourself.
On February 23 2014 01:18 goody153 wrote: does anyone know any pro-game where syllabear got into the mythical 12 slotted double bear ? aside from the longest game in dota 2 in TI3 where burning basically maxed .. please post the link of the vod .. ty
If no one really has done that then i would settle with the closest to 12 slot like 9-10 slot
BoTs, BKB, Basher, Cheese, Aegis on hero. Phase, BKB, AC, Radiance, MKB, Basher on bear. That's 11 slots if you count cheese and aegis as items, pretty good. :D
OMFG .. that game was insane .. kunka just 1 hits EVERYTHING
Forget Syllabear .. that was crazy ... a lot of 6 slotted heroes
On February 23 2014 15:01 Ryrmidon wrote: So I still haven't heard a good justification for random gold being in the game
because what kept dota alive after a decade of development isnt the competitiveness but the fun aspect of the game. Random is a high risk high reward strategy in pub that has a lot of educational value to lower skill player. If you care about fairness, there is always captain mode for your competitive blood. And if you want to be a hypocrite and try to blame the system that functioned perfectly for years, you might want to re-examine yourself.
it adds variety to the game, i could just pick storm spirit, luna, bristleback, timbersaw, mirana, OD or slark every game and win a ridicilous amount but it gets old really fast. Random Gold is a good incentive for me to random and play weaker heros, sure you maybe get a little extra regen but honestly if i would just pick a high impact hero i will win way more.
Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
On February 23 2014 15:01 Ryrmidon wrote: So I still haven't heard a good justification for random gold being in the game
because what kept dota alive after a decade of development isnt the competitiveness but the fun aspect of the game. Random is a high risk high reward strategy in pub that has a lot of educational value to lower skill player. If you care about fairness, there is always captain mode for your competitive blood. And if you want to be a hypocrite and try to blame the system that functioned perfectly for years, you might want to re-examine yourself.
Yikes.
because what kept dota alive after a decade of development isnt the competitiveness but the fun aspect of the game.
I don't see how random gold adds to the fun of the game, and even if it did I don't see how it's influence on the overall "fun aspect" would be more than negligible compared to silly things like actual gameplay.
Random is a high risk high reward strategy in pub
High risk in what sense? The "this might fuck up our lanes and team composition" sense? Does that really add anything worthwhile to the strategic aspect of the game?
that has a lot of educational value to lower skill player.
I don't see how. If you actually care about improving, playing a completely different hero every game is actually a pretty shitty and slow way to learn. Plus getting used to random gold is a terrible and counter productive habit itself.
If you care about fairness, there is always captain mode for your competitive blood.
You're just completely (and shamelessly) sidestepping the actual argument. This isn't a point at all. The existence of captains mode doesn't mean it's fine if stupid shit is in other game modes because hey, they're not competitive. I'm not saying random gold is "stupid shit", but captain's mode being a thing isn't a reason to just complete side step the argument. Maybe Ryrmidon doesn't like captain's mode. Some people don't like the long queue time, the long hero selection time or the idea of letting 1 person decide everyone's hero.
And if you want to be a hypocrite and try to blame the system that functioned perfectly for years, you might want to re-examine yourself.
This is pretty ass backwards logic. The game is constantly evolving and being tweaked. One thing that's awesome about Dota is valve does a pretty good job of listening to and addressing community feedback. The fact that something has existed for a long time is no reason to claim it's perfect or not up for discussion.
On February 23 2014 15:51 Ryrmidon wrote: Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
Sorry, why is it a horrible mechanic? You aren't exactly justifying your own opinion either. Burden of proof and all that.
Is not choosing your hero for 250g an unfair advantage? How do you define that? I will beat a player of the same skill level when I chose my hero and they random the 90% of the pool they aren't up to their MMR with. The 250g won't win the game for them.
Will they sometimes random a hero they're particularly good with? Yes. Obviously. Lets take out all randomness out of the game. Damage reduction for attacking up hill, not miss chance. Static attack numbers. Ogre Magi and Chaos Knight removed from game.
Honestly if you want to be THIS upset about it I'm curious why you continue to play AP? If you take the game so seriously that you're worried about some silly "advantage" (that most people see as a disadvantage and rage when an ally randoms) then why aren't you playing ranked CM only?
I'm not even defending this as someone who randoms often. I random about 5% of games and tend to lose them. I just have no problem with its existence, and I am baffled how you can be so strongly emotional about it.
On February 23 2014 15:51 Ryrmidon wrote: Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
Sorry, why is it a horrible mechanic? You aren't exactly justifying your own opinion either. Burden of proof and all that.
Is not choosing your hero for 250g an unfair advantage? How do you define that? I will beat a player of the same skill level when I chose my hero and they random the 90% of the pool they aren't up to their MMR with. The 250g won't win the game for them.
Will they sometimes random a hero they're particularly good with? Yes. Obviously. Lets take out all randomness out of the game. Damage reduction for attacking up hill, not miss chance. Static attack numbers. Ogre Magi and Chaos Knight removed from game.
Honestly if you want to be THIS upset about it I'm curious why you continue to play AP? If you take the game so seriously that you're worried about some silly "advantage" (that most people see as a disadvantage and rage when an ally randoms) then why aren't you playing ranked CM only?
I'm not even defending this as someone who randoms often. I random about 5% of games and tend to lose them. I just have no problem with its existence, and I am baffled how you can be so strongly emotional about it.
If you want to random you can just play all random
On February 23 2014 15:51 Ryrmidon wrote: Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
Sorry, why is it a horrible mechanic? You aren't exactly justifying your own opinion either. Burden of proof and all that.
Is not choosing your hero for 250g an unfair advantage? How do you define that? I will beat a player of the same skill level when I chose my hero and they random the 90% of the pool they aren't up to their MMR with. The 250g won't win the game for them.
Will they sometimes random a hero they're particularly good with? Yes. Obviously. Lets take out all randomness out of the game. Damage reduction for attacking up hill, not miss chance. Static attack numbers. Ogre Magi and Chaos Knight removed from game.
Honestly if you want to be THIS upset about it I'm curious why you continue to play AP? If you take the game so seriously that you're worried about some silly "advantage" (that most people see as a disadvantage and rage when an ally randoms) then why aren't you playing ranked CM only?
I'm not even defending this as someone who randoms often. I random about 5% of games and tend to lose them. I just have no problem with its existence, and I am baffled how you can be so strongly emotional about it.
If you want to random you can just play all random
He randoms first and then gets 2 counterpicks, more gold aint gonna stop that, if he still wins he is a boss!
On February 23 2014 15:51 Ryrmidon wrote: Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
Sorry, why is it a horrible mechanic? You aren't exactly justifying your own opinion either. Burden of proof and all that.
Is not choosing your hero for 250g an unfair advantage? How do you define that? I will beat a player of the same skill level when I chose my hero and they random the 90% of the pool they aren't up to their MMR with. The 250g won't win the game for them.
Will they sometimes random a hero they're particularly good with? Yes. Obviously. Lets take out all randomness out of the game. Damage reduction for attacking up hill, not miss chance. Static attack numbers. Ogre Magi and Chaos Knight removed from game.
Honestly if you want to be THIS upset about it I'm curious why you continue to play AP? If you take the game so seriously that you're worried about some silly "advantage" (that most people see as a disadvantage and rage when an ally randoms) then why aren't you playing ranked CM only?
I'm not even defending this as someone who randoms often. I random about 5% of games and tend to lose them. I just have no problem with its existence, and I am baffled how you can be so strongly emotional about it.
If you want to random you can just play all random
Except there is a happy medium between "5 people all random" and "everyone picks the same heroes every game".
Which is what we have. You get a couple people that random, swap if someone wants to play them, repick and choose something safe if nobody does, and get generally get coherent teams rather than the chaos of All Random. It's just a slight incentive to spur some variety in All Pick, because otherwise people have no real incentive to not just either pick their strongest/most comfortable heroes every game or just wait to counterpick--the latter of which was already a big enough problem for Icefrog to introduce the steady gold loss after 0:00.
High risk in what sense? The "this might fuck up our lanes and team composition" sense? Does that really add anything worthwhile to the strategic aspect of the game?
There is a repick option. The only time random fucks up your lanes is if the guy is too much of a prick to repick something that won't work with what's already picked, but those are the kinds of players who last pick a carry when your team can't fit another one anyway--those guys will find a way to ruin your game regardless and it has nothing to do with randoming.
EDIT: Let me put the reason random gold is in the game this way:
You have 5 pubs in the game in hero selection who have never met each other, have no idea what anyone else can play, and therefore no idea what they will get to play that game. You have a deadlock because someone picking first makes it easier to spur people pick other heroes around that. But that initial pick generally is only going to be resolved three ways: 1) Someone picks an OP hero because they don't want the other team to get it first 2) Someone picks a comfort hero for lack of any ideas 3) Someone randoms
In terms of game variety, someone hitting that random button is going to create the greatest variation in terms of pub games and therefore the most interesting and varied player experiences in the long run. You get a random pick, see if someone wants to play it, and if so, it's a starting point for the rest of the teamcomp. If not, repick, no big deal. This is a lot better than every pub game starting with someone grabbing an OP hero. BUT because of the inherent risk in randoming that you don't necessarily get something you can play, very few people would hit that random button without some incentive to do so.
The guy who randoms last pick and then refuse to repick, yes that guy is an asshole. But that guy is going to be an asshole either way. If there was no random button, he'd last pick a carry when your team has them already. Removing random gold so he doesn't random doesn't mean he won't find a way to ruin your games.
On February 23 2014 15:51 Ryrmidon wrote: Do we really believe the general dota population is so stupid we have to hold their hand through picking new heroes? I'm asking for good reasons, not awful ones. If you wanna try new heroes then go ahead, if you don't that's your incentive. It's not a reason to implement a horrible mechanic, and if u can't bring yourself to try new heroes without getting an unfair advantage that's your problem
Sorry, why is it a horrible mechanic? You aren't exactly justifying your own opinion either. Burden of proof and all that.
Is not choosing your hero for 250g an unfair advantage? How do you define that? I will beat a player of the same skill level when I chose my hero and they random the 90% of the pool they aren't up to their MMR with. The 250g won't win the game for them.
Will they sometimes random a hero they're particularly good with? Yes. Obviously. Lets take out all randomness out of the game. Damage reduction for attacking up hill, not miss chance. Static attack numbers. Ogre Magi and Chaos Knight removed from game.
Honestly if you want to be THIS upset about it I'm curious why you continue to play AP? If you take the game so seriously that you're worried about some silly "advantage" (that most people see as a disadvantage and rage when an ally randoms) then why aren't you playing ranked CM only?
I'm not even defending this as someone who randoms often. I random about 5% of games and tend to lose them. I just have no problem with its existence, and I am baffled how you can be so strongly emotional about it.
If you want to random you can just play all random
If you don't want to have randoms then don't play all pick
On February 23 2014 19:20 rob.au wrote: yeah there's a happy medium between a moba that bans people who random and dota2, except that medium is one crushes the other one in playercount.
Yeah i'm sure theres a correlation between being able to random and the playerbase, good argument
On February 23 2014 19:20 rob.au wrote: yeah there's a happy medium between a moba that bans people who random and dota2, except that medium is one crushes the other one in playercount.
What is this third moba you are refering to that crushes both currest bestest mobas?
Correct me if I am wrong because I've played League twice in my life. But don't you sort of upgrade your heroes there as well? So if you random you might get heroes that are not as powerful as the ones you've played more?
Also I would still random even if they removed the random gold.
On February 23 2014 19:20 rob.au wrote: yeah there's a happy medium between a moba that bans people who random and dota2, except that medium is one crushes the other one in playercount.
The comparison to LoL doesn't even make any sense, given that the interface for champion selection in Blind Pick doesn't make random possible in a way that isn't totally obstructive of sensible picking--for example, despite a swap option existing in Draft Mode, one doesn't exist in Blind Pick, meaning if you hard random, YOU have to play it. You also can't back out the way you can in DotA (amusingly the one game mode that has all random built into it actually DOES support repicks).
So yes, with the random option being totally fucking awful in LoL, it's an option that would only be used by trolls and assholes. Fortunately, DotA has some sensible guardrails around the random option to make it not awful to random something you can't play (repick, swap). Can it be misused? Sure. But I fail to see how random gold existing is making people into pricks that will screw up your teamcomps in All Pick and that those people wouldn't fuck with your game regardless.
On February 23 2014 19:33 DrPandaPhD wrote: Correct me if I am wrong because I've played League twice in my life. But don't you sort of upgrade your heroes there as well? So if you random you might get heroes that are not as powerful as the ones you've played more?
Also I would still random even if they removed the random gold.
Afaik there's nothing about the heroes themselves, but runes and stuff that are optimal for certain heroes. So if you have a lot of them I guess you could play every hero, but that should take a huge amount of time/money. I think the way the "correct" playstyle is so heavily enforced is still the biggest reason people don't random. If you get to the point of banning people for picking an option that you put into the game, it's no surprise people will refrain from picking said option.
EPT
