|
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 30 2013 04:04 MidgetExplosion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 03:59 TheYango wrote:
5x solo vs. 5-stack should be fine because of how party MMR being separate from solo MMR means the 5-stack's MMR is appropriately adjusted. You get a shittier 5-stack against stronger individual players and it eventually works.
The problem with stacks is 2- or 3-stacks that have a really wide MMR spread which makes it hard to match a good game. Which is not really a problem exclusive to ranked. They would have to really compensate for a 5-stack vs 5x solo... It's crazy how much teamwork gives you an advantage in DOTA, it's really really crazy how much that effects the outcome of a game.
There isn't explicit compensation, and there doesn't need to be.
If you win games as a stack, your party MMR goes up until your stack is winning as often as it's losing. In the process, it's essentially finding an MMR where 5 solos have a similar MMR to your party's MMR. Because solo games don't affect your party MMR, your party MMR effectively accounts for the advantage of being in a stack.
Essentially, a 4500 party MMR stack should not have an advantage against a group of 5 4500 MMR solos, because 4500 party MMR means that that's the MMR that they are evenly matched against. That 4500 MMR party in actuality is often comprised of players who have significantly less than 4500 solo MMR.
This gets skewed if you play ranked with stacks of wildly varying skill which will cause your party MMR to not properly represent a particular stack you may be in.
|
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On December 30 2013 04:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 04:04 MidgetExplosion wrote:On December 30 2013 03:59 TheYango wrote:
5x solo vs. 5-stack should be fine because of how party MMR being separate from solo MMR means the 5-stack's MMR is appropriately adjusted. You get a shittier 5-stack against stronger individual players and it eventually works.
The problem with stacks is 2- or 3-stacks that have a really wide MMR spread which makes it hard to match a good game. Which is not really a problem exclusive to ranked. They would have to really compensate for a 5-stack vs 5x solo... It's crazy how much teamwork gives you an advantage in DOTA, it's really really crazy how much that effects the outcome of a game. There isn't explicit compensation, and there doesn't need to be. If you win games as a stack, your party MMR goes up until your stack is winning as often as it's losing. In the process, it's essentially finding an MMR where 5 solos have a similar MMR to your party's MMR. Because solo games don't affect your party MMR, your party MMR effectively accounts for the advantage of being in a stack. Essentially, a 4500 party MMR stack should not have an advantage against a group of 5 4500 MMR solos, because 4500 party MMR means that that's the MMR that they are evenly matched against. That 4500 MMR party in actuality is often comprised of players who have significantly less than 4500 solo MMR. This gets skewed if you play ranked with stacks of wildly varying skill which will cause your party MMR to not properly represent a particular stack you may be in.
People might have their party MMR mainly from playing with just 1 other person, but in a 5 stack cooperation will probably make them better. That's just one problem I can think off right now.
I don't think it's necessary for Valve to try and make games like these (5 solo vs 5 stack) happen, it would just get weird. Plus, can you imagine the whining form the community? It's bad enough as it is and the system is trying to avoid putting parties against solos.
|
United States47024 Posts
I agree with that, which is why my point was that most of the complaints about stacks in ranked should have very little to do with 5-stacks, and more to do with 2- and 3-stacks that have wide MMR spreads. That tends to be much more common than unfair 5-solo vs 5-stack matches.
|
On December 30 2013 04:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 04:04 MidgetExplosion wrote:On December 30 2013 03:59 TheYango wrote:
5x solo vs. 5-stack should be fine because of how party MMR being separate from solo MMR means the 5-stack's MMR is appropriately adjusted. You get a shittier 5-stack against stronger individual players and it eventually works.
The problem with stacks is 2- or 3-stacks that have a really wide MMR spread which makes it hard to match a good game. Which is not really a problem exclusive to ranked. They would have to really compensate for a 5-stack vs 5x solo... It's crazy how much teamwork gives you an advantage in DOTA, it's really really crazy how much that effects the outcome of a game. There isn't explicit compensation, and there doesn't need to be. If you win games as a stack, your party MMR goes up until your stack is winning as often as it's losing. In the process, it's essentially finding an MMR where 5 solos have a similar MMR to your party's MMR. Because solo games don't affect your party MMR, your party MMR effectively accounts for the advantage of being in a stack. Essentially, a 4500 party MMR stack should not have an advantage against a group of 5 4500 MMR solos, because 4500 party MMR means that that's the MMR that they are evenly matched against. That 4500 MMR party in actuality is often comprised of players who have significantly less than 4500 solo MMR. This gets skewed if you play ranked with stacks of wildly varying skill which will cause your party MMR to not properly represent a particular stack you may be in.
The only problem with your theory is that when I solo queue, i often am queued with a bunch of people that immediately hate eachother and start raging before picks happen. If I'm in a stack, at least I like the people I'm playing with and my team is willing to give this winning thing a shot.
In short: I hate people.
|
I think they explicitly said that 5 stack vs 5 solos is impossible in ranked in some patch notes.
|
|
|
28102 Posts
On December 30 2013 05:08 Qbek wrote:
I think they explicitly said that 5 stack vs 5 solos is impossible in ranked in some patch notes.
I remember seeing that as well. Also I have yet to experience it so it's rare if it is possible anyways.
|
To be fair, stacks can go both ways in to how they affect the matchmaking. I play with my friends and only 1 maybe 2 of them are above 4000 along with me, but depending on the roles played you never know how the game is going to get matched up. I've begun playing a lot of support with my friends, and I play it much better than them, but if they fall behind as a carry ever they have a hard time catching up because they aren't very good at playing from behind.
Switch roles and its a completely different scenario where I can play from behind, but am lacking on the support in lane now. This still generally results in better situations if we end up with weaker lanes, but still causes a lot of problems such as poor warding which hinders gameplay since we're used to vision when I'm support.
Five stacks work well if everyone plays something they are good at, and your best players play their best roles, at least for the stacking team. Reverse that and you end up in a reverse situation a lot of time where the opposite happens. Unfortunately for most stacks this is less the case since the carry or mid will usually be their best player.
This is generally why it is so hard to balance 5 stacks and this game in general. People are better at certain roles than others, and when you decide to switch that up ranked games can still be very random despite even skill levels. This just gets amplified a lot with solo MMR, but can also do the opposite and match up a perfect team of players in their best roles. These result in the awesome games that you know where everyone enjoys it and no one is raging. The rest are the rage games -_-. 5 stack or not, there are inconsistencies, 5 stacks are just slightly more consistent. 2-3 stacks are just random and rarely ever fit well with either setup.
|
11696 Posts
I'm not entirely happy with the system but I do like the fact that it exists.
|
I enjoy playing vs skilled tryhard stacks when I solo.
It's these few times that I can go full throttle, otherwise I just troll around and that's why erasme ended up with higher mmr.
¿
|
I like how valve shows you any stacks in the game when its over, it can help you make sense of a game afterwards. And by not showing it earlier, there is less potential qq or abandoning.
This also makes it almost impossible for people to see if they play versus stacks, thus keeping the focus on their own play.
|
On December 30 2013 03:55 cecek wrote:
Do you people actually run into something extreme like 5x solo against a fivestack or something? So far I've seen it be very equal every time... 4+1 vs 3+2, 1+2+2 vs 3+1+1, 5x solo vs 1+1+1+2 etc. All of which are perfectly fine, imo.
I honestly would like to see screenshots of the extremely unfair matchups you people are whining about.
This was specifically patched out. 5 solo vs 5 team was extremely unfair to one side (not always the solos). I encountered it 3 times in a row the first night of ranked matchmaking.
http://www.dota2.com/news/updates/12134/
dec 18th -
- Added Legion Commander to the workshop.
- Updated workshop files for Dazzle, Dragon Knight, Bloodseeker, Broodmother and Batrider that include separated fbx and smd files.
- 5 solo players will never match against a 5 man party in Ranked Matchmaking (and will be extremely unlikely in Unranked).
- Fixed bug where you could have multiple recruiters, or active recruitment requests once accepting a recruiter.
- Some players with multiple accepted recruiters will have their recruitment status reset.
- The armory filter dropdown will no longer be hidden by any active Battle Point Boosters.
- Fixed various crash bugs around Guides in Frostivus.
- Improved audio mix of player and caster voice on surround sound systems.
- Fixed a crash on systems with multiple gamepads connected.
- Fixed a case where backdoor protection would not function properly.
- Fixed Ember Spirit base HP regen being 0.25 instead of 0.75
- Fixed Naga Siren base HP regen being 0.25 instead of 0.75
- Match history now shows MMR and change for your ranked matches.
|
On December 30 2013 06:00 Steveling wrote:
I enjoy playing vs skilled tryhard stacks when I solo.
It's these few times that I can go full throttle, otherwise I just troll around and that's why erasme ended up with higher mmr.
¿
all i see is 1k difference and i dont even play carry all the time
|
Who even cares about ranked, its a number that ranks you in how bad you are
because you're bad. You're all bad. I'm bad. Everyone's bad.
|
|
|
Its like that website I went to when I was learning to Dota:
"Welcome to Dota, you suck"
Ranks only enforce the fact that you suck and getting better is hard.
|
On December 30 2013 07:31 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 06:00 Steveling wrote:
I enjoy playing vs skilled tryhard stacks when I solo.
It's these few times that I can go full throttle, otherwise I just troll around and that's why erasme ended up with higher mmr.
¿ all i see is 1k difference and i dont even play carry all the time
!
It's only 600-700 points and I don't even paj that much.
|
11696 Posts
|
On December 30 2013 07:51 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 07:31 Erasme wrote:On December 30 2013 06:00 Steveling wrote:
I enjoy playing vs skilled tryhard stacks when I solo.
It's these few times that I can go full throttle, otherwise I just troll around and that's why erasme ended up with higher mmr.
¿ all i see is 1k difference and i dont even play carry all the time ! It's only 600-700 points and I don't even paj that much.
well thats lucky for you since your puj blows !
(ITS FRIENDLY FLAME IF YOU DIDNT KNOW)
|
On December 30 2013 07:58 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 07:51 Steveling wrote:On December 30 2013 07:31 Erasme wrote:On December 30 2013 06:00 Steveling wrote:
I enjoy playing vs skilled tryhard stacks when I solo.
It's these few times that I can go full throttle, otherwise I just troll around and that's why erasme ended up with higher mmr.
¿ all i see is 1k difference and i dont even play carry all the time ! It's only 600-700 points and I don't even paj that much. well thats lucky for you since your puj blows ! (ITS FRIENDLY FLAME IF YOU DIDNT KNOW)
All flames are friendly unless stated otherwise
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
