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On October 28 2013 18:12 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:57 Shock710 wrote:On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion. When you say comeback, imo its a thin line to walk vs a team who is building up midas (the 3-5 midas's do not pop out all at the same time) sure you're gold is going to an item which has a more immediate effect: mek or force a boot upgrade. You've spent ur gold on something stable, they've spent they're gold on something thats is going to extend their lead if you dont do something, which puts u in a situation where ur item definitely needs to show some impact. Pushing towers with mek is a nice example but having a mek doesnt grantee that tower, certainly gives you a nice edge to take it but if you dont thats where the midas's are going to take charge (and over time give the midas team a even larger lead) Also its definitely NOT team A brought 3-4 non midas items, and team B brought 3-4 midas now lets make them fight! Like yango was saying LGD (and other teams) get the midas through good play and early advantages, that allows room for the 1st midas to be picked up (and we've already seen in older patchs that timeframe to exploit the 1st midas is nearly impossible) now that midas is making room for another player to pick his midas along with more good play theres ur 2nd midas and so forth. Just because they spent money into midas and have "inferior" fighting/team items doesnt mean they will be walking on the map and letting you take fights with them. Teams pushing into towers (not as a follow up to kills) already have a disadvantage of position and the tower damage to deal with. Its definitely much harder to excute ur "punishment" on the other team for picking up midas than just saying it, and IF you fail with ur non-midas items now ur just falling behind in gold and exp. It kinda reminds me of like getting a early lead in sc2, and then expanding (but the other guy will amass more units than you and just kill you, u should just keep making units) but we know we've enough room to let us expand and with good play we shouldnt take any damage from an attack and especially if that attack fails we have expansion and we're going to get more ahead. I get why teams get midases... You get ahead, and you have 2 options, secure the lead by getting farming items (like thre midas), or get agressive items and get more ahead/close the game out. Both ways are valid. What I don't get is why the team behind gets it. If I expand onto the sc2 analogy, that's like one players losing some early fights, suffering economy damage. Then he sees the enemy expanded, so he also expands, just 2 minutes later. I don't see how that's a good way to come back into the game. I don't actually knwo anything about sc2, I hope what I said makes sense.
some people do like to expand after falling behind, simply because its too hard to break in with an allin (relys on too much luck) however if you believe you're the better player taking the expand and pushing the game into a VERY lategame situtation where ur inital deficit doesnt matter anymore (something like maxing out at 200 now those 10 probes u lost dont matter as much)
Getting those midas will stop the growth in lead, u'll only be behind in that inital deficit, which you can try to over come with better play. 190 gold each midas cd, thats like rosh gold to ur midas team members every ~2min (100 seconds) you dont dont get yours you'll start to fall behind extremely quickly (once the inital midas cost amount has been paided off)
Like if ur behind 500 gold (just random number example) between the time they got their midas's and ur midas that amount will stay the same, if u dont it grows.
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On October 28 2013 18:12 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:57 Shock710 wrote:On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion. When you say comeback, imo its a thin line to walk vs a team who is building up midas (the 3-5 midas's do not pop out all at the same time) sure you're gold is going to an item which has a more immediate effect: mek or force a boot upgrade. You've spent ur gold on something stable, they've spent they're gold on something thats is going to extend their lead if you dont do something, which puts u in a situation where ur item definitely needs to show some impact. Pushing towers with mek is a nice example but having a mek doesnt grantee that tower, certainly gives you a nice edge to take it but if you dont thats where the midas's are going to take charge (and over time give the midas team a even larger lead) Also its definitely NOT team A brought 3-4 non midas items, and team B brought 3-4 midas now lets make them fight! Like yango was saying LGD (and other teams) get the midas through good play and early advantages, that allows room for the 1st midas to be picked up (and we've already seen in older patchs that timeframe to exploit the 1st midas is nearly impossible) now that midas is making room for another player to pick his midas along with more good play theres ur 2nd midas and so forth. Just because they spent money into midas and have "inferior" fighting/team items doesnt mean they will be walking on the map and letting you take fights with them. Teams pushing into towers (not as a follow up to kills) already have a disadvantage of position and the tower damage to deal with. Its definitely much harder to excute ur "punishment" on the other team for picking up midas than just saying it, and IF you fail with ur non-midas items now ur just falling behind in gold and exp. It kinda reminds me of like getting a early lead in sc2, and then expanding (but the other guy will amass more units than you and just kill you, u should just keep making units) but we know we've enough room to let us expand and with good play we shouldnt take any damage from an attack and especially if that attack fails we have expansion and we're going to get more ahead. I get why teams get midases... You get ahead, and you have 2 options, secure the lead by getting farming items (like thre midas), or get agressive items and get more ahead/close the game out. Both ways are valid. What I don't get is why the team behind gets it. If I expand onto the sc2 analogy, that's like one players losing some early fights, suffering economy damage. Then he sees the enemy expanded, so he also expands, just 2 minutes later. I don't see how that's a good way to come back into the game. I don't actually knwo anything about sc2, I hope what I said makes sense.
I mean, the multiple Midas build is actually summed up best by Artosis himself, in his eponymous rule: when you're ahead, get more ahead.
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the simple fact is, China is playing weird dota. Maybe they're way ahead. idk.
That said, I think that the western meta is evolving faster and may not have a problem with the Midas strat. The NEL and EEL have thrown the meta into some sort of hyper iteration in the western scene i mean holy shit.
Generally, the only teams running the midas well are LGD and LGD.int, its clearly a strat built between them through scrims and just iterating over and over.
You'll notice, LGD will often take all the t1s with early aggro, restricting the other team's space, then they fall back and with the tower gold, build midases and proceed to farm while trying to keep the other team's farming area tightly restricted
20 minutes later they have a massive pile of gold and just win via that, its the same chinese strangulation dota strategy, just with a new face.
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Since everyone appears to be talking about midas. Can someone explain the chinese phenomenon of the CM Midas? DK does it, LGD does it, I think I even saw an iG game where they did it. Like how does a CM get a Midas? Did CM move to the 4 role instead of the 5? Is it only good if CM is playing the 4 and someone else is the 5? I get that it helps CM get much needed levels and gold but it's still so odd to me.
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On October 28 2013 18:54 Xinder wrote:
Since everyone appears to be talking about midas. Can someone explain the chinese phenomenon of the CM Midas? DK does it, LGD does it, I think I even saw an iG game where they did it. Like how does a CM get a Midas? Did CM move to the 4 role instead of the 5? Is it only good if CM is playing the 4 and someone else is the 5? I get that it helps CM get much needed levels and gold but it's still so odd to me.
CM can jungle with frostbite, since the teams that are doing this midas thing best are LGD/.int, they generally do it after taking all the enemy t1s with early aggro
She greatly benefits from tankiness and things like bkb and force staff anyways, her abilities are strong if she can keep casting them.
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On October 28 2013 18:57 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 18:54 Xinder wrote:
Since everyone appears to be talking about midas. Can someone explain the chinese phenomenon of the CM Midas? DK does it, LGD does it, I think I even saw an iG game where they did it. Like how does a CM get a Midas? Did CM move to the 4 role instead of the 5? Is it only good if CM is playing the 4 and someone else is the 5? I get that it helps CM get much needed levels and gold but it's still so odd to me. CM can jungle with frostbite, since the teams that are doing this midas thing best are LGD/.int, they generally do it after taking all the enemy t1s with early aggro She greatly benefits from tankiness and things like bkb and force staff anyways, her abilities are strong if she can keep casting them.
she also does very well with levels early on, having max frostbite/nova/lvl 2 ult can really do a huge impact
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On October 28 2013 18:23 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 18:12 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:57 Shock710 wrote:On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion. When you say comeback, imo its a thin line to walk vs a team who is building up midas (the 3-5 midas's do not pop out all at the same time) sure you're gold is going to an item which has a more immediate effect: mek or force a boot upgrade. You've spent ur gold on something stable, they've spent they're gold on something thats is going to extend their lead if you dont do something, which puts u in a situation where ur item definitely needs to show some impact. Pushing towers with mek is a nice example but having a mek doesnt grantee that tower, certainly gives you a nice edge to take it but if you dont thats where the midas's are going to take charge (and over time give the midas team a even larger lead) Also its definitely NOT team A brought 3-4 non midas items, and team B brought 3-4 midas now lets make them fight! Like yango was saying LGD (and other teams) get the midas through good play and early advantages, that allows room for the 1st midas to be picked up (and we've already seen in older patchs that timeframe to exploit the 1st midas is nearly impossible) now that midas is making room for another player to pick his midas along with more good play theres ur 2nd midas and so forth. Just because they spent money into midas and have "inferior" fighting/team items doesnt mean they will be walking on the map and letting you take fights with them. Teams pushing into towers (not as a follow up to kills) already have a disadvantage of position and the tower damage to deal with. Its definitely much harder to excute ur "punishment" on the other team for picking up midas than just saying it, and IF you fail with ur non-midas items now ur just falling behind in gold and exp. It kinda reminds me of like getting a early lead in sc2, and then expanding (but the other guy will amass more units than you and just kill you, u should just keep making units) but we know we've enough room to let us expand and with good play we shouldnt take any damage from an attack and especially if that attack fails we have expansion and we're going to get more ahead. I get why teams get midases... You get ahead, and you have 2 options, secure the lead by getting farming items (like thre midas), or get agressive items and get more ahead/close the game out. Both ways are valid. What I don't get is why the team behind gets it. If I expand onto the sc2 analogy, that's like one players losing some early fights, suffering economy damage. Then he sees the enemy expanded, so he also expands, just 2 minutes later. I don't see how that's a good way to come back into the game. I don't actually knwo anything about sc2, I hope what I said makes sense. some people do like to expand after falling behind, simply because its too hard to break in with an allin (relys on too much luck) however if you believe you're the better player taking the expand and pushing the game into a VERY lategame situtation where ur inital deficit doesnt matter anymore (something like maxing out at 200 now those 10 probes u lost dont matter as much) Getting those midas will stop the growth in lead, u'll only be behind in that inital deficit, which you can try to over come with better play. 190 gold each midas cd, thats like rosh gold to ur midas team members every ~2min (100 seconds) you dont dont get yours you'll start to fall behind extremely quickly (once the inital midas cost amount has been paided off) Like if ur behind 500 gold (just random number example) between the time they got their midas's and ur midas that amount will stay the same, if u dont it grows.
I'd also like to point out that people seem to constantly, CONSTANTLY overlook the IAS and XP on Midas.
Firstly the 2.5x XP bonus is not insignificant. Its a nice boost on top of the gold and lets you put a little extra pressure on the other team to keep up in levels. On top of that Hand of Midas is a double Gloves of Haste of stats alone. This provides a modest bonus to actual fighting capability as well as significantly speeding up your actual farming.
The gold from the active is just part of the package. It pays for itself much earlier than you'd expect thanks to the attack speed bonus.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
what the hell is going on
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On October 28 2013 08:20 Kuroeeah wrote:
I agree with you that I thought players can still utilize Necro even when it was countered by HotD or Midas. I disagree that the reason why we're seeing the usage of Necronomicon now is merely because of a trend. In competitive games we've reached a point where even supports would have them 20-25 minutes into the game because of the gold income you gain now is exponentially larger than how it was even several patches ago.
Necronomicon is not an item that's exclusive to cores such as BM anymore, before the items that supports would have 50 minutes into the game is now an item that can be accessed at around less then half that time. This isn't something i'm throwing around as something you would only see in pubs, I've seen a whole lot of competitive games as of late that I really believe this is just how the game is now.
On October 28 2013 08:34 Sbrubbles wrote:
Gold gain being exponentially larger is a bit of an exaggeration. Passive gold gain is 33% higher, so instead of 1500 passive gold at 20 minutes it's 2000 passive gold (25 extra gold per minute).
The hero salary raise (passive gold) indeed plays a big role here but the reason that team opted for mass necrobooks is a trends (imo). And this is related to the mass midas strat as well.
Like i said, if there was no changes on 'midas/helm no longer work on necro', mass necrobook is still a very powerful strat and i can assure you that it is very unlikely 2 or 3 out of the #3-5 players will get midas/helm to counter (1-2 midas/helm in a team to counter is reasonable).
So with the salary raise, with the indirect buff to necrobook, suddenly mass necrobook strat showed up everywhere (ie a trends). While the core issue is actually the 'salary raise', the supports could still have opted for other supportive items (earlier mek, pipe, dagger, forcestaff etc etc), and somehow midas was caught by this drift too, ie the mass midas strat (lol).
Loving this weird trends/experimenting from teams for the new patch and in fairness it has tonnes of drastic changes and you can see the valid reasons behind all these strats rofl.
And because of work+ Hearthstone i havent seen a proper dota game since last monday >_< so i really cant tell if the timing of these mass necrobook/midas were any good.
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Vatican City State2902 Posts
when you're ahead, you're ahead in gold. but it's kinda rare that you're that far ahead in exp and that's imo what the midases are for.
also yeah I did the math and it gives you ~1050 gold of attack speed which means the transmute passive pays for itself in something like 14 minutes just from the gold.
but the exp gain it gives if you transmute the right creeps is massive.
also, here's something important:
Never fucking use midas on a ranged creep. Ever. You're better off waiting 50 seconds to find a melee creep, I'm serious.
but yeah your exp/min if you transmute centaur conquerer, dark troll summoner, satyr tormenter (red satyr), hellbear smasher, or wildwing ripper goes up by at least 100 exp/min.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
Waiting 50 seconds is a considerable drop in gpm. I believe kpoptosis said that if you miss 2 or 3 last hits in your quest to get a fancy transmute off it's no longer worth it.
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Imho main rule for Midas is:
USE IT... Don't waste time to get that "ideal" creep, just bloody use it asap whenever it's up. If there is a big creep nearby then get it, if not just take whatever you can.
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On October 28 2013 21:48 Velr wrote:
Imho main rule for Midas is:
USE IT... Don't waste time to get that "ideal" creep, just bloody use it asap whenever it's up. If there is a big creep nearby then get it, if not just take whatever you can.
That is definitely NOT the main rule. n0tail was talking about this OCD on midas usage whenever the cd is up. There's not much use in waiting for a bigger creep maybe if you're already at lvl 13-15 or so, but you should almost always try to get to a big spawn at lower levels.
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the EXP is mega important at lower levels
it doesn't amtter for shit once you get higher tho
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A level 5 (and now all level 6 creeps) are worth twice as much experience as a level 3 creep. So you're getting an additional 2.5 melee creeps in experience. People should stop using absolutes and do it when it's better.
The chinese are getting midas because it's really dangerous to push into a chinese team's base, it's an easy way to trade kills and start a comeback. So if you can still crush the other team in open ground and get even more ahead (and if they're dodging team fights), you can leverage it.
Also I think the level 11 exp, and certain heroes really needing levels 12 13 14 make it important.
And this would be a terrible idea in the ti1 push strat era where teams like navi would just rax you in 20. Or if the other team has superb teamfight and just need one fight to come back.
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You dont have a chance of getting items of better quality if you delete them? Have always been deleting my commons, but the message doesnt say there is a chance for uncommons anymore. :\
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On October 28 2013 21:32 Firebolt145 wrote:
Waiting 50 seconds is a considerable drop in gpm. I believe kpoptosis said that if you miss 2 or 3 last hits in your quest to get a fancy transmute off it's no longer worth it.
goldwise its not worth it as soon as you miss 2 creeps, more for exp
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On October 28 2013 22:21 Slomo wrote:
You dont have a chance of getting items of better quality if you delete them? Have always been deleting my commons, but the message doesnt say there is a chance for uncommons anymore. :\
People were selling taunts so they got rid of this system, if I remember the reasoning behind it.
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I wish they would get rid of this extra gold/minute the team get when they have a leaver
It's fucking easier to win a pub 4v5 than 5v5 with this when you have carries
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EPT
