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On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon).
I think the experience boost is just as important as the gold boost.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon).
Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming.
That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion.
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Just wait until teams start drafting Pudge, Zues, TA, or Slardar and we will see midas gaming decline.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Btw, Death Prophet still not good enough for pro games? The ult does SO MUCH damage now. When I read the changelog I was sure she was going o get picked.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion.
We're talking in too many intangibles here.
The thing is, the nature of the game is such that it's a lot easier to be the defender than the attacker. Because of this there are common scenarios where buying fighting items now means you can't break T2s because you have to be the aggressor, and at the same time, buying Midases doesn't let the enemy come back with fighting items because if they buy fighting items, THEY have to be the aggressor.
You can't just see 3 Midases, buy fighting items and say "ok we can win fights now". You actually have to find a place to make those fights happen, and that means running into the enemy jungle and pushing their towers--in which case, you might NOT be able to win those fights because if the other team was winning the game before they got those 3 Midases, their defender's advantage in their own jungle or on their own tower is probably enough to outweigh the gold lost investing in the Midases.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
This is like flash doing 14cc every game all over again.
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:53 Firebolt145 wrote:
This is like flash doing 14cc every game all over again.
BW had no Smoke equivalent.
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28103 Posts
14cc is the only way to play.
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28103 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:54 dfs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:53 Firebolt145 wrote:
This is like flash doing 14cc every game all over again. BW had no Smoke equivalent.
proxy rax?
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United States47024 Posts
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28103 Posts
A drop.
DT's are perma invis so that's more like Riki than a smoke.
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On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion.
When you say comeback, imo its a thin line to walk vs a team who is building up midas (the 3-5 midas's do not pop out all at the same time) sure you're gold is going to an item which has a more immediate effect: mek or force a boot upgrade. You've spent ur gold on something stable, they've spent they're gold on something thats is going to extend their lead if you dont do something, which puts u in a situation where ur item definitely needs to show some impact.
Pushing towers with mek is a nice example but having a mek doesnt grantee that tower, certainly gives you a nice edge to take it but if you dont thats where the midas's are going to take charge (and over time give the midas team a even larger lead)
Also its definitely NOT team A brought 3-4 non midas items, and team B brought 3-4 midas now lets make them fight! Like yango was saying LGD (and other teams) get the midas through good play and early advantages, that allows room for the 1st midas to be picked up (and we've already seen in older patchs that timeframe to exploit the 1st midas is nearly impossible) now that midas is making room for another player to pick his midas along with more good play theres ur 2nd midas and so forth.
Just because they spent money into midas and have "inferior" fighting/team items doesnt mean they will be walking on the map and letting you take fights with them. Teams pushing into towers (not as a follow up to kills) already have a disadvantage of position and the tower damage to deal with. Its definitely much harder to excute ur "punishment" on the other team for picking up midas than just saying it, and IF you fail with ur non-midas items now ur just falling behind in gold and exp.
It kinda reminds me of like getting a early lead in sc2, and then expanding (but the other guy will amass more units than you and just kill you, u should just keep making units) but we know we've enough room to let us expand and with good play we shouldnt take any damage from an attack and especially if that attack fails we have expansion and we're going to get more ahead.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:56 icystorage wrote:
arbiter
That's actually probably the better comparison, not because of the cloaking, but because of the surprise buttsex factor of Recall.
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
You can't build DTs, Arbiters, Drops or proxy rax 2 minutes before the game has started and just worker rush.
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28103 Posts
On October 28 2013 18:02 Mithhaike wrote:
Am i in the dota2 forum?
Nope, you're lost.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion. We're talking in too many intangibles here. The thing is, the nature of the game is such that it's a lot easier to be the defender than the attacker. Because of this there are common scenarios where buying fighting items now means you can't break T2s because you have to be the aggressor, and at the same time, buying Midases doesn't let the enemy come back with fighting items because if they buy fighting items, THEY have to be the aggressor. You can't just see 3 Midases, buy fighting items and say "ok we can win fights now". You actually have to find a place to make those fights happen, and that means running into the enemy jungle and pushing their towers--in which case, you might NOT be able to win those fights because if the other team was winning the game before they got those 3 Midases, their defender's advantage in their own jungle or on their own tower is probably enough to outweigh the gold lost investing in the Midases.
It's still a better shot than losing, seeing enemy get midases and then getting your own midases 5 minutes later... You might as well gg right there. Ofc, it;s hard to comeback from a deficit and most often it won't work, but you have to get the items that give you the best shot at making the item. I don't see how getting reactionary midases is the best way to try and make a comeback... You're not getting any angle of attack, you just have the same stuff as the other team, just worse.
If you get fighting items, then sure it might be hard to find fights, but there' smokes, the enemy has to be more careful and farm less, etc. If you get midases, the team ahead has all the control, they farm faster, they already have a lead, it's up to them to make a move whenever they want.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:57 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2013 17:26 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 17:15 TheYango wrote:On October 28 2013 17:06 cecek wrote:On October 28 2013 16:56 Kishin2 wrote:
Thing about midas is that it increases the amount of gold/exp on the map. There are ways to punish mass midas, but the margin of error is low. If you don't win then the midas team will eventually catch-up/pull ahead. The margin of error isn't lower than when trying to beat other strats... When a team buys 3x Midas, they spent 6k gold on nothing basically. The enemy team should have a huge item advantage at that point. This is assuming that the team that's buying Midases wasn't ahead already. If you look at the LGD games, what we saw was closer to "get ahead early, buy Midases with the lead". Midas is an item that's about timings. If you are ahead when you buy a Midas, you don't necessarily give the opponent a chance to come back, but you do also give up some pressure. Buying Midases in that midgame time period is perhaps indicative of a game where it's really easy to break T1s, but really hard to break T2s--so that once you've gotten a lead from early game breaking the outer towers, the best play is not necessarily to keep pushing the lead, but to farm up. Factors that could contribute to this farming tempo after an early lead are the decrease in jungle gold (reducing the economic benefit of controlling the enemy jungle) and the increase in streak gold (increasing the risks for a team that has an advantage trying to push that advantage too soon). Well, if you're ahead early and spend money on multiple midases, that's just giving the other team more outs to come back into the game. Because the enemy can spend their gold to have it much bigger immediate impact. They definitely do give a bigger chance for comeback than if the team that's leading bought normal items. Well... I guess it's not necesarilly "bigger or smaller" chances, just different chances. If a team that's ahead buys midases, the other team has a chance to come back into the game by fighting, if the team ahead buys normal items, the team behind has a better chance coming back by farming. That being said, I haven't seen a Chinese team try to comeback into a game by fighting through the Midases, they always just get Midases of their own, which is a big mistake, in my opinion. When you say comeback, imo its a thin line to walk vs a team who is building up midas (the 3-5 midas's do not pop out all at the same time) sure you're gold is going to an item which has a more immediate effect: mek or force a boot upgrade. You've spent ur gold on something stable, they've spent they're gold on something thats is going to extend their lead if you dont do something, which puts u in a situation where ur item definitely needs to show some impact. Pushing towers with mek is a nice example but having a mek doesnt grantee that tower, certainly gives you a nice edge to take it but if you dont thats where the midas's are going to take charge (and over time give the midas team a even larger lead) Also its definitely NOT team A brought 3-4 non midas items, and team B brought 3-4 midas now lets make them fight! Like yango was saying LGD (and other teams) get the midas through good play and early advantages, that allows room for the 1st midas to be picked up (and we've already seen in older patchs that timeframe to exploit the 1st midas is nearly impossible) now that midas is making room for another player to pick his midas along with more good play theres ur 2nd midas and so forth. Just because they spent money into midas and have "inferior" fighting/team items doesnt mean they will be walking on the map and letting you take fights with them. Teams pushing into towers (not as a follow up to kills) already have a disadvantage of position and the tower damage to deal with. Its definitely much harder to excute ur "punishment" on the other team for picking up midas than just saying it, and IF you fail with ur non-midas items now ur just falling behind in gold and exp. It kinda reminds me of like getting a early lead in sc2, and then expanding (but the other guy will amass more units than you and just kill you, u should just keep making units) but we know we've enough room to let us expand and with good play we shouldnt take any damage from an attack and especially if that attack fails we have expansion and we're going to get more ahead.
I get why teams get midases... You get ahead, and you have 2 options, secure the lead by getting farming items (like thre midas), or get agressive items and get more ahead/close the game out. Both ways are valid. What I don't get is why the team behind gets it. If I expand onto the sc2 analogy, that's like one players losing some early fights, suffering economy damage. Then he sees the enemy expanded, so he also expands, just 2 minutes later. I don't see how that's a good way to come back into the game.
I don't actually knwo anything about sc2, I hope what I said makes sense.
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Well, in sc2, you generally either go for a desperate all-in to end the game before his economy kicks in, or you attempt to expand and play catch-up, since, in most non-mirror matchups, there is usually some advantage you can leverage, no matter how far behind you are. This is really dependent on intangibles like game flow and player mentality, and since dota is a team game (and also more difficult to all-in in), it's natural for the overall mentality to be fairly conservative.
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EPT
