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On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do  valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends.
You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends.
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On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends.
It depends heavily on how you play. If you pick a high impact hero and try to win the game by yourself, the system works. If you don't, it doesn't. You can't avoid the fact that the way a single player plays has a huge impact in the game. It's better to do it this way than to make the game easy if the stack "tryhards", because the other players didn't have the choice of queueing against a vastly uneven stack. There is no solution for that.
Having multiple accounts is fine and makes sense. Just like having separate accounts for diferent races in SC would make sense. If for some reason you play in two diferent ways that would give you diferent MMRs, it's better to separate them in two account and keep both MMRs stable than doing it all on a single account which would only increase the uncertainty of the matchmaking by a big margin.
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On September 22 2013 23:16 FakeDeath wrote:
Okay is Tauren Ancestral Spirit supposed to block Neutral Camp?
Pretty sure it is.
Btw, try to jungle with him. I'm for real. As radiant you stack the middle hard camp and the ancestral and send it through all three camps while clearing the easy camp with +1017853619 damage.
ez monie ez lyfe ez biches
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Golems spawn and he'll cry.
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On September 22 2013 21:09 kollin wrote:
BoTs first medusa is the funnest thing in the whole world.
I was used to do that back then when I played in garena public game. Go mid with medusa, outfarm their mid solo, the first 2500 gold is used to buy BoT and either help ganking/teamfighting or just farm in empty lane.
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You can hook him with clockwerk's hookshot, I guess the ancestral spirit is seen as 'physical' unit
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On September 23 2013 00:33 BoesFX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:09 kollin wrote:
BoTs first medusa is the funnest thing in the whole world. I was used to do that back then when I played in garena public game. Go mid with medusa, outfarm their mid solo, the first 2500 gold is used to buy BoT and either help ganking/teamfighting or just farm in empty lane.
My build at the moment is 3 branches 1 slipper 1 circlet, get RoA then wand then boots, then go bots and farm the entire map.
Skill build is mana shield first, then max mystic snake, then max mana shield, then 1 point of stats, then two levels in your ult then split shot.
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On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends.
Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy.
It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun.
If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!"
TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them.
It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play.
Smurfs have their places in DOTA2.
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On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2.
I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games"
I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all).
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On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:
It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are
I would say this is the big reason you would want to use a smurf. You might be able to win 50% of your games by picking a high impact hero and winning the game for them, but it really is not fun for them at all. Much better to have a separate account, play whatever you want, and let the system match you on how you actually play as a team. I've had people not want to play with me because I "made the games too hard" which just sucks.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Matchmaking simply cannot equally match teams with vastly varying skill levels of players, in a game such as Dota. And this has a lot to do with the high impact heroes, ie. those that can snowball.
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Also there's 1 additional problem when talking about matchmaking - it will simply not know if the players will want to play a serious game with top tier picks or a trollgame with blinkin slammin antimage. Even the biggest tryhards want to do something different from time to time.
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On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all).
I think it is just math plus people acting in an expected way. Since the only time you get situations where one player is vastly better than the other 4 is when you run a premade, the best player knows who they are, and they are more likely to pick a high impact hero. Now when valve looks at the numbers, they see that (apperently), having one player much better than the others, who usually ends up playing a high impact hero, gives you an advantage, so they increase the skill at which you are playing at. Now when you get to the situation where we are right now, where if you don't play a high impact hero, your team is at a disadvantage. Keep in mind however, that picking suboptimal heroes/compositions has always put you at a disadvantage. Your 5 carry team is also going to have a hard time.
Should it work like this? I think it would be best if groups were handled the same way SC2 does it with separate individual ratings for each group of people you play with. This allows you to eventually get to where a smurf would take you, ideally kind of fast, but without needing the smurf and still allowing even games based on what you actually do, instead of what the system things you are going to do (which is play some high impact hero).
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On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all).
You don't have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes". You have plenty of options, and you don't even have to be mid, carry or even offlane can work just fine. There's just a huge diference in the skilled player playing a Timbersaw, QoP, Alchemist, etc. to him playing a CM like a proper support. There's literally no reasonable solution to it, Valve can either balance it taking into account you try to carry the game by yourself, or not do it and let stacks stomp the other team if they choose to do it. It sucks that you are forced to carry enough to compensate for the rest of the team feeding, but that's as even as it can get.
I don't know why you are even talking about random teammates, the issue is with the people who are stacking with you. The random teammates you will get are better than your noob friends and worse than you, that's just how it averages out. Unless you are talking about something completelly unrelated to the post you quoted.
On September 23 2013 01:23 DeltaX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all). I think it is just math plus people acting in an expected way. Since the only time you get situations where one player is vastly better than the other 4 is when you run a premade, the best player knows who they are, and they are more likely to pick a high impact hero. Now when valve looks at the numbers, they see that (apperently), having one player much better than the others, who usually ends up playing a high impact hero, gives you an advantage, so they increase the skill at which you are playing at. Now when you get to the situation where we are right now, where if you don't play a high impact hero, your team is at a disadvantage. Keep in mind however, that picking suboptimal heroes/compositions has always put you at a disadvantage. Your 5 carry team is also going to have a hard time. Should it work like this? I think it would be best if groups were handled the same way SC2 does it with separate individual ratings for each group of people you play with. This allows you to eventually get to where a smurf would take you, ideally kind of fast, but without needing the smurf and still allowing even games based on what you actually do, instead of what the system things you are going to do (which is play some high impact hero).
The issue with creating diferent MMRs for each party you form is that you both need more players to play the game, which leads to a far bigger number of player combinations, and that, from personal experience at least, you play with diferent combinations far more often than in SC2. I only had a few people I did team games in SC2, but I wouldn't be able to count the amount of people I queued with in Dota 2. It's not a system that works as well in a casual team ladder enviroment. They could treat how the MMR evolves diferently if it's always the same stack, but not in the same way it works for SC2. They may even already do something with it, it's not like we have any information about the current system.
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On September 23 2013 01:13 Kaniol wrote:
Also there's 1 additional problem when talking about matchmaking - it will simply not know if the players will want to play a serious game with top tier picks or a trollgame with blinkin slammin antimage. Even the biggest tryhards want to do something different from time to time.
Yeah, I know. The biggest problem with dota 2 is that matchmaking happens before choosing heroes, and I don't believe there is any way of putting it after without completely changing the game. You can still go "herp derp" items as well even if you choose a hero you're usually good with. Still the system is more flawed than need be, mostly due to the fact that it shows no sign of progression whatsoever. I still don't understand why you cant see your own mmr, some kind of point system, or some kind of indication other than where your replays land as to how good you're actually doing. Even Valve themselves have gone out and said that they don't like their own system, so presumably it is going to change at some point. But this is Valve we're talking about, it could still be years
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On September 23 2013 01:24 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all). You don't have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes". You have plenty of options, and you don't even have to be mid, carry or even offlane can work just fine. There's just a huge diference in the skilled player playing a Timbersaw, QoP, Alchemist, etc. to him playing a CM like a proper support. There's literally no reasonable solution to it, Valve can either balance it taking into account you try to carry the game by yourself, or not do it and let stacks stomp the other team if they choose to do it. It sucks that you are forced to carry enough to compensate for the rest of the team feeding, but that's as even as it can get. I don't know why you are even talking about random teammates, the issue is with the people who are stacking with you. The random teammates you will get are better than your noob friends and worse than you, that's just how it averages out. Unless you are talking about something completelly unrelated to the post you quoted.
No, thats the whole point I'm trying to make. The system will go "Oh, you two are in a stack, that means opponents needs to get better. Oh, one of you are way better than the other, that means opponents need to be way better. Oh, we couldn't find enough opponents who match the criteria, your teammates are now worse instead". That is what happens in 100% of the games I play with him. I never have this issue when stacking with people with similar mmr or by my own.
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On September 23 2013 01:28 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:24 SKC wrote:On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all). You don't have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes". You have plenty of options, and you don't even have to be mid, carry or even offlane can work just fine. There's just a huge diference in the skilled player playing a Timbersaw, QoP, Alchemist, etc. to him playing a CM like a proper support. There's literally no reasonable solution to it, Valve can either balance it taking into account you try to carry the game by yourself, or not do it and let stacks stomp the other team if they choose to do it. It sucks that you are forced to carry enough to compensate for the rest of the team feeding, but that's as even as it can get. I don't know why you are even talking about random teammates, the issue is with the people who are stacking with you. The random teammates you will get are better than your noob friends and worse than you, that's just how it averages out. Unless you are talking about something completelly unrelated to the post you quoted. No, thats the whole point I'm trying to make. The system will go "Oh, you two are in a stack, that means opponents needs to get better. Oh, one of you are way better than the other, that means opponents need to be way better. Oh, we couldn't find enough opponents who match the criteria, your teammates are now worse instead". That is what happens in 100% of the games I play with him. I never have this issue when stacking with people with similar mmr or by my own.
I seriously doubt that's what happens. And it certainly isn't what happens in my games, if I queue with someone far below my level, he is quite often the worst player on the team, not the random teammates. There's always some serious bias when people say their teammates are bad in Dota.
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On September 23 2013 01:31 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:28 Excludos wrote:On September 23 2013 01:24 SKC wrote:On September 23 2013 01:00 Excludos wrote:On September 23 2013 00:52 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 23:39 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 22:11 Mithhaike wrote:On September 22 2013 21:54 Excludos wrote:On September 22 2013 21:40 Alur wrote:On September 22 2013 21:19 Acritter wrote:
Does anyone know if queueing with an incomplete stack of lower-skilled players can lead to the matchmaker selecting players below the skill level of your friends to balance things out? I ask because I sometimes queue with weaker friends of mine, and I'm not sure if it's just par for the course at lower matchmaking levels to have people who seem to actively want to ruin the game, or whether it's the MMR difference that's doing it. I'd much prefer to make a smurf than make the games I play with my friends un-fun... If a stack has a player who is significantly above the rest, the stack will be valued higher than just the average of it's ratings. This is because valve has found that the highest rated player has a disproportionate impact on the game. Though I don't think it affects what pub teammates you get. This is why I cant stack with a friend of mine whos mmr is a lot lower. I have a near 100% lose ratio when I do valve seriously underestimate the impact bad players have on a team as well. That is why i have 2smurfs account. 1 for training purposes, the other is for queuing with my noob friends. You've kinda failed with your matchmaking if you're forced to play on separate accounts just to play with your friends. Actually, it's for the benefits of my friends. When they queue with me, I have to go high impact heroes and try to win the game 1v5, or chances are it will be a stomp in favor of the enemy. It's no fun for my friends when they have to face people who are obviously better than they are, their casuals, not interested in improving themself. Rather, they just play to have fun. If i get on my smurf i can just play to have fun too. It's the time where I can do stupid things like support gyro and have fun at it. My friends wont be losing every single lanes into a loss every time. It's for all of our benefits, cos I dont get to rage and feel "damn my friends suck, if they were just better!" TLDR: A smurf prevents their rating from being raised too much, to face opponents who are obviously better than them. It prevents every game from being a lose every lane(except mine) into lose the game, which is more fun for them and thus they will continue to play. Smurfs have their places in DOTA2. I think both you and SKC missed my point entirely. If you have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes" just so you can play with your friends, the matchmaking system is flawed. You don't have this restriction when playing solo or with people on your mmr, why should it suddenly apply when you're playing with someone with lower mmr? Its retarded that when me with very high mmr is playing with a friend who is smack in the middle of "just high", I either have to get on one of my smurfs, or watch the other 3 teammates come from "normal bracket with less than 50 games" I completely agree that smurfs have a place, but the game is obviously not designed around it considering you have to get an entire new steam profile to do so. This means that they don't expect you to get a smurf, and thus the matchmaking system is flawed (not that there ever was any doubt about that last part, this is only one of the many things that add up to it after all). You don't have to play from a heropool of 5 "high impact heroes". You have plenty of options, and you don't even have to be mid, carry or even offlane can work just fine. There's just a huge diference in the skilled player playing a Timbersaw, QoP, Alchemist, etc. to him playing a CM like a proper support. There's literally no reasonable solution to it, Valve can either balance it taking into account you try to carry the game by yourself, or not do it and let stacks stomp the other team if they choose to do it. It sucks that you are forced to carry enough to compensate for the rest of the team feeding, but that's as even as it can get. I don't know why you are even talking about random teammates, the issue is with the people who are stacking with you. The random teammates you will get are better than your noob friends and worse than you, that's just how it averages out. Unless you are talking about something completelly unrelated to the post you quoted. No, thats the whole point I'm trying to make. The system will go "Oh, you two are in a stack, that means opponents needs to get better. Oh, one of you are way better than the other, that means opponents need to be way better. Oh, we couldn't find enough opponents who match the criteria, your teammates are now worse instead". That is what happens in 100% of the games I play with him. I never have this issue when stacking with people with similar mmr or by my own. I seriously doubt that's what happens. And it certainly isn't what happens in my games, if I queue with someone far below my level, he is quite often the worst player on the team, not the random teammates. There's always some serious bias when people say their teammates are bad in Dota.
I wont deny the bias, but I also think of myself good enough that I can spot who the bad players on the team are. Still doesn't change the fact that we never win with each other.
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On September 22 2013 23:16 FakeDeath wrote:
Okay is Tauren Ancestral Spirit supposed to block Neutral Camp?
It's bugged right now so it doesn't block spawn when it is supposed to. Also it isn't supposed to block Pudge hook.
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EPT
