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United Kingdom24425 Posts
I think a subscribe to a player with some extra features would be good. I don't think it could be just a bare system.
Like also get a way to organize in-house games. Get a way to do Q&A's. Have a hub to put that stuff in and also things like guides/etc.
I don't think it's all that easy to solve the player problem, because this would really only work to become relatively profitable for like Sing and Dendi. Which is why I think it's interesting Valve keeps mentioning it.
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Lets do some hypothetical maths.
So, for this to have a relevant effect on players they'd need to earn something like $800 per month from this system. (for someone in western europe, and that's still a very low amount)
How much would people pay to subscribe to a player? If they're only subscribing to one then maybe $3-5. If many then $1-2. Per month. Lets say it costs $4. Valve for items takes 75%.
So you'd need 800 people paying $4 per month to get $800.
How many players could get 800 people paying $4? Many can get 3-4k streaming, but there's a huge gap between watching something for free and paying for something. I think probably less than 10 players could get 800 people paying $4 per month.
And that's still to make $800, which is nothing.
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It's not the system the game needs.
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On June 15 2013 19:23 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 19:18 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 18:02 teapoted wrote:
“Professional players are the next step,” Johnson says, addressing a flaw in Dota 2’s current structure. “The amount of value they’re creating is extraordinary. I don’t think we’re close to accurately compensating those players for the value they’re creating. That’s something we want to turn our focus to.”
From PCGamer interview. They've been saying this for a long time, I wonder what their real plan is. Because they mention pro players generating so much value almost every single interview they do. Yeah they keep saying that but it's just communication, they're doing nothing. They could implement a lot of things, like following a pro for x$ a month, or whatever, but they just say that to be like "we love progamers". They should stop saying it and start to show it ? Liquid's pennant took months and months, and they're allowed a pennant just because they're a TI team, so they'll sell a lot for TI and take their 75% margin or so on the sales. Where are DD's pennant, 4Friend's pennant, and all of those teams that need money's pennants ? They keep announcing stuff, but they do nothing. On the other hand, they never forget to release the weekly new chest and its key. Well new chests and keys is obvious because that's also community generated content and it's a business model that works. People whine a lot about how 'x doesn't happen' but there are new cosmetics, but that system probably doesn't take all that much effort. Following pros for x$'s a month is probably not a business model that works apart from for the same people who pull in huge streaming numbers. Thus the people who need it the least. I think pennants take so long because the system isn't finished, it's not like it's a lot of work from their side. I thought the whole pennant system would be redone. Either way, I don't think it's easy to create a system that will do for players what tickets does for tournaments. But they bring it up so often as if they either have done something big or are doing something big, when currently Dota players probably have it worse than most other eSports especially compared to the amount of fans they have.
Well perhaps my examples aren't the most accurate, but I remember when they released the ingame team logos, they said it was just the beginning, and they've done basically nothing that isn't benefiting Valve in the first place since.
The compendium earned them like 2 millions dollars ffs and most ikely required very few manpower, yet they keep delaying every features that don't profit them directly. (I could understand that if they didn't kept saying that players are their priority etc etc.)
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 15 2013 19:45 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 19:23 teapoted wrote:On June 15 2013 19:18 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 18:02 teapoted wrote:
“Professional players are the next step,” Johnson says, addressing a flaw in Dota 2’s current structure. “The amount of value they’re creating is extraordinary. I don’t think we’re close to accurately compensating those players for the value they’re creating. That’s something we want to turn our focus to.”
From PCGamer interview. They've been saying this for a long time, I wonder what their real plan is. Because they mention pro players generating so much value almost every single interview they do. Yeah they keep saying that but it's just communication, they're doing nothing. They could implement a lot of things, like following a pro for x$ a month, or whatever, but they just say that to be like "we love progamers". They should stop saying it and start to show it ? Liquid's pennant took months and months, and they're allowed a pennant just because they're a TI team, so they'll sell a lot for TI and take their 75% margin or so on the sales. Where are DD's pennant, 4Friend's pennant, and all of those teams that need money's pennants ? They keep announcing stuff, but they do nothing. On the other hand, they never forget to release the weekly new chest and its key. Well new chests and keys is obvious because that's also community generated content and it's a business model that works. People whine a lot about how 'x doesn't happen' but there are new cosmetics, but that system probably doesn't take all that much effort. Following pros for x$'s a month is probably not a business model that works apart from for the same people who pull in huge streaming numbers. Thus the people who need it the least. I think pennants take so long because the system isn't finished, it's not like it's a lot of work from their side. I thought the whole pennant system would be redone. Either way, I don't think it's easy to create a system that will do for players what tickets does for tournaments. But they bring it up so often as if they either have done something big or are doing something big, when currently Dota players probably have it worse than most other eSports especially compared to the amount of fans they have. Well perhaps my examples aren't the most accurate, but I remember when they released the ingame team logos, they said it was just the beginning, and they've done basically nothing that isn't benefiting Valve in the first place since. The compendium earned them like 2 millions dollars ffs and most ikely required very few manpower, yet they keep delaying every features that don't profit them directly. (I could understand that if they didn't kept saying that players are their priority etc etc.) I don't know what you're talking about
Delaying every feature that doesn't profit them? The player subscribe feature would profit Valve.
And the shit that does give them profit is already a system that is in place. There aren't 10 developers working on adding hats. The fact that you see 1000 new hats doesn't mean that with 0 new hats you'd have something else.
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On June 15 2013 19:54 teapoted wrote:
The fact that you see 1000 new hats doesn't mean that with 0 new hats you'd have something else.
This, this so much.
So many people complain about X or Y not being implemented when hats are still being added.
While the people working on adding hats or chests are more than likely not the same people that work on new ideas and systems and what not.
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On June 15 2013 06:22 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 05:14 crms wrote:Who's your favorite EG pro Dota 2 player? DeMoN (33%, 1,823 Votes) Fear (25%, 1,407 Votes) Maelk (Coach) (24%, 1,318 Votes) Bamboe (11%, 596 Votes) Jeyo (5%, 260 Votes) bdiz (2%, 178 Votes) Total Voters: 5,582 http://evilgeniuses.gg/jnx-sponsors-evil-geniuses/With marketability being EG's money maker, looks like DeMoN is going to #bleedblue forever.  but bdiz is the best one  friendliest at least i wanna hug him
Well, it's kind of expected bdiz would have the least fans, because 1) he plays support and 2) he doesn't have an awesome mustache.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
Honestly all of the cosmetic stuff on a weekly basis could probably be done by like 2-3 people in a day.
You make a small painting for a chest and a key. You have stuff that gets upvoted. You select what to include. You make sure the models are up to spec (if they are not they send them back to creators, I doubt they edit them at Valve all the time)
That's basically it. Nothing compared to actually building new features.
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On June 15 2013 19:54 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 19:45 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 19:23 teapoted wrote:On June 15 2013 19:18 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 18:02 teapoted wrote:
“Professional players are the next step,” Johnson says, addressing a flaw in Dota 2’s current structure. “The amount of value they’re creating is extraordinary. I don’t think we’re close to accurately compensating those players for the value they’re creating. That’s something we want to turn our focus to.”
From PCGamer interview. They've been saying this for a long time, I wonder what their real plan is. Because they mention pro players generating so much value almost every single interview they do. Yeah they keep saying that but it's just communication, they're doing nothing. They could implement a lot of things, like following a pro for x$ a month, or whatever, but they just say that to be like "we love progamers". They should stop saying it and start to show it ? Liquid's pennant took months and months, and they're allowed a pennant just because they're a TI team, so they'll sell a lot for TI and take their 75% margin or so on the sales. Where are DD's pennant, 4Friend's pennant, and all of those teams that need money's pennants ? They keep announcing stuff, but they do nothing. On the other hand, they never forget to release the weekly new chest and its key. Well new chests and keys is obvious because that's also community generated content and it's a business model that works. People whine a lot about how 'x doesn't happen' but there are new cosmetics, but that system probably doesn't take all that much effort. Following pros for x$'s a month is probably not a business model that works apart from for the same people who pull in huge streaming numbers. Thus the people who need it the least. I think pennants take so long because the system isn't finished, it's not like it's a lot of work from their side. I thought the whole pennant system would be redone. Either way, I don't think it's easy to create a system that will do for players what tickets does for tournaments. But they bring it up so often as if they either have done something big or are doing something big, when currently Dota players probably have it worse than most other eSports especially compared to the amount of fans they have. Well perhaps my examples aren't the most accurate, but I remember when they released the ingame team logos, they said it was just the beginning, and they've done basically nothing that isn't benefiting Valve in the first place since. The compendium earned them like 2 millions dollars ffs and most ikely required very few manpower, yet they keep delaying every features that don't profit them directly. (I could understand that if they didn't kept saying that players are their priority etc etc.) I don't know what you're talking about Delaying every feature that doesn't profit them? The player subscribe feature would profit Valve. And the shit that does give them profit is already a system that is in place. There aren't 10 developers working on adding hats. The fact that you see 1000 new hats doesn't mean that with 0 new hats you'd have something else.
I'm not sure they would take 75% money from players tbh. Would be a little greedy when we're talking about hundreds of potential subscribers. At least I assume if they do something for players they won't take the majority of money from it, as you said we're talking about small sums here.
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Valve is full of a lot of very smart folks. I have no doubt that they've done a good job of separating the process of designing new cosmetics from the process of writing code, so that the people that are making new chests/items/whatever are people that would absolutely not be contributing to a new system for following players or whatever otherwise.
On an entirely unrelated note, does anyone(probably Yango, lol) know whether Tidebringer's radius is based on the target's location or Kunkka's location?
Now that I think about it I guess it's really a question about cleave in general. I've always assumed that it was based on the location of the target, but I really don't know. Obviously it doesn't matter a lot but I'm curious.
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On June 15 2013 20:05 eieio wrote:
Valve is full of a lot of very smart folks. I have no doubt that they've done a good job of separating the process of designing new cosmetics from the process of writing code, so that the people that are making new chests/items/whatever are people that would absolutely not be contributing to a new system for following players or whatever otherwise.
On an entirely unrelated note, does anyone(probably Yango, lol) know whether Tidebringer's radius is based on the target's location or Kunkka's location?
Now that I think about it I guess it's really a question about cleave in general. I've always assumed that it was based on the location of the target, but I really don't know. Obviously it doesn't matter a lot but I'm curious.
The origin is actually the point X (where X is the radius of the cleave) units away from your hero in the direction he is facing.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 15 2013 20:03 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 19:54 teapoted wrote:On June 15 2013 19:45 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 19:23 teapoted wrote:On June 15 2013 19:18 MrCon wrote:On June 15 2013 18:02 teapoted wrote:
“Professional players are the next step,” Johnson says, addressing a flaw in Dota 2’s current structure. “The amount of value they’re creating is extraordinary. I don’t think we’re close to accurately compensating those players for the value they’re creating. That’s something we want to turn our focus to.”
From PCGamer interview. They've been saying this for a long time, I wonder what their real plan is. Because they mention pro players generating so much value almost every single interview they do. Yeah they keep saying that but it's just communication, they're doing nothing. They could implement a lot of things, like following a pro for x$ a month, or whatever, but they just say that to be like "we love progamers". They should stop saying it and start to show it ? Liquid's pennant took months and months, and they're allowed a pennant just because they're a TI team, so they'll sell a lot for TI and take their 75% margin or so on the sales. Where are DD's pennant, 4Friend's pennant, and all of those teams that need money's pennants ? They keep announcing stuff, but they do nothing. On the other hand, they never forget to release the weekly new chest and its key. Well new chests and keys is obvious because that's also community generated content and it's a business model that works. People whine a lot about how 'x doesn't happen' but there are new cosmetics, but that system probably doesn't take all that much effort. Following pros for x$'s a month is probably not a business model that works apart from for the same people who pull in huge streaming numbers. Thus the people who need it the least. I think pennants take so long because the system isn't finished, it's not like it's a lot of work from their side. I thought the whole pennant system would be redone. Either way, I don't think it's easy to create a system that will do for players what tickets does for tournaments. But they bring it up so often as if they either have done something big or are doing something big, when currently Dota players probably have it worse than most other eSports especially compared to the amount of fans they have. Well perhaps my examples aren't the most accurate, but I remember when they released the ingame team logos, they said it was just the beginning, and they've done basically nothing that isn't benefiting Valve in the first place since. The compendium earned them like 2 millions dollars ffs and most ikely required very few manpower, yet they keep delaying every features that don't profit them directly. (I could understand that if they didn't kept saying that players are their priority etc etc.) I don't know what you're talking about Delaying every feature that doesn't profit them? The player subscribe feature would profit Valve. And the shit that does give them profit is already a system that is in place. There aren't 10 developers working on adding hats. The fact that you see 1000 new hats doesn't mean that with 0 new hats you'd have something else. I'm not sure they would take 75% money from players tbh. Would be a little greedy when we're talking about hundreds of potential subscribers. At least I assume if they do something for players they won't take the majority of money from it, as you said we're talking about small sums here. From what I understand they take 75% from everything. Which sounds like a lot but for this kind of system where the product really only exists in another's IP it really isn't.
So I think whatever they do for players, they will still take 75%.
Which is fine, but they need a system where it actually works. What I outlined, doesn't work. 10 people earning $800 is a bad system.
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On June 15 2013 20:11 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 20:05 eieio wrote:
Valve is full of a lot of very smart folks. I have no doubt that they've done a good job of separating the process of designing new cosmetics from the process of writing code, so that the people that are making new chests/items/whatever are people that would absolutely not be contributing to a new system for following players or whatever otherwise.
On an entirely unrelated note, does anyone(probably Yango, lol) know whether Tidebringer's radius is based on the target's location or Kunkka's location?
Now that I think about it I guess it's really a question about cleave in general. I've always assumed that it was based on the location of the target, but I really don't know. Obviously it doesn't matter a lot but I'm curious. The origin is actually the point X (where X is the radius of the cleave) units away from your hero in the direction he is facing.
So if the radius is 600(maxed tidebringer) then the cleave deals damage in a 600-radius circle starting 600 units away from kunkka in the direction that he is facing? Or am I being dumb.
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it's based on kunkka's location
so it splashes in a 600 diameter circle (everything that has a number for aoe means diameter) ~300 units away from kunkka
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On June 15 2013 20:33 Dead9 wrote:
it's based on kunkka's location
so it splashes in a 600 diameter circle (everything that has a number for aoe means diameter) ~300 units away from kunkka
ok I had assumed that 600 was the diameter, not the radius. 600 radius would be huge lol. TY for explanation, kind of embarrassed that I didn't know this given that I've played dota on an off for several years D:
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
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On June 15 2013 20:01 teapoted wrote:
Honestly all of the cosmetic stuff on a weekly basis could probably be done by like 2-3 people in a day.
You make a small painting for a chest and a key. You have stuff that gets upvoted. You select what to include. You make sure the models are up to spec (if they are not they send them back to creators, I doubt they edit them at Valve all the time)
That's basically it. Nothing compared to actually building new features.
There's a lot more to modeling and animating then simply 'checking the models are up to spec'.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 15 2013 20:43 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 20:01 teapoted wrote:
Honestly all of the cosmetic stuff on a weekly basis could probably be done by like 2-3 people in a day.
You make a small painting for a chest and a key. You have stuff that gets upvoted. You select what to include. You make sure the models are up to spec (if they are not they send them back to creators, I doubt they edit them at Valve all the time)
That's basically it. Nothing compared to actually building new features. There's a lot more to modeling and animating then simply 'checking the models are up to spec'. I never said it took 30 seconds to check a model, I have done 3d animation at university. But with the amount of sets they bring in every week I think it's perfectly possible that 2-3 people could do that work in a day considering they don't edit them. And considering they've been doing this with TF2 for a while I'd suspect they have a lot of tools to speed up the process. It's not something any competent developer or artist would want to spend their time doing if it isn't. And really the topic of discussion was that it was taking time away from other features, which I don't think it is.
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On June 15 2013 20:43 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 20:01 teapoted wrote:
Honestly all of the cosmetic stuff on a weekly basis could probably be done by like 2-3 people in a day.
You make a small painting for a chest and a key. You have stuff that gets upvoted. You select what to include. You make sure the models are up to spec (if they are not they send them back to creators, I doubt they edit them at Valve all the time)
That's basically it. Nothing compared to actually building new features. There's a lot more to modeling and animating then simply 'checking the models are up to spec'.
Sure, but both modeling and animating are vastly different from coding a new feature.
I'm young and a coder(so Teapoted, who I know is a designer, can correct me here...) but I'd think any decent system would let designers add new items/cosmetics through a process that is entirely unrelated to whatever the valve coders do to add new features/patch notes/heroes/whatever.
My assumption is that valve has a few people(maybe like 5 at maximum) who add new cosmetics and design hero models and shit like that, and they're people who wouldn't even think about introducing a new feature to the game or something.
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Based on the target that you hit Tidebringer on, and the AoE is indeed huge lol
![[image loading]](http://www.playdota.com/img/guides/1243669776.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/physattackmods
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On June 15 2013 20:47 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 20:43 ReignSupreme. wrote:On June 15 2013 20:01 teapoted wrote:
Honestly all of the cosmetic stuff on a weekly basis could probably be done by like 2-3 people in a day.
You make a small painting for a chest and a key. You have stuff that gets upvoted. You select what to include. You make sure the models are up to spec (if they are not they send them back to creators, I doubt they edit them at Valve all the time)
That's basically it. Nothing compared to actually building new features. There's a lot more to modeling and animating then simply 'checking the models are up to spec'. I never said it took 30 seconds to check a model, I have done 3d animation at university. But with the amount of sets they bring in every week I think it's perfectly possible that 2-3 people could do that work in a day considering they don't edit them. And considering they've been doing this with TF2 for a while I'd suspect they have a lot of tools to speed up the process. It's not something any competent developer or artist would want to spend their time doing if it isn't. And really the topic of discussion was that it was taking time away from other features, which I don't think it is.
aren't like 95% of the cosmetics made by the community now anyway
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EPT
