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On May 10 2013 17:05 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 16:08 NB wrote:On May 10 2013 15:49 eieio wrote:On May 10 2013 15:31 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 10:49 run.at.me wrote:
I'm sorry but there are definitely try hards in dota - while the game is competitive, it's also just a game - yet you see the nerds picking the ez nub heroes like nyx (seriously.. you don't pick nyx unless your a try hard noob)
They are labelled try hards because it is the equivalent of cheese in sc2.. Strategies that are much harder to counter than to execute.
While cheese in sc2 was generally accepted, nobody liked versing it and nobody respected it.
I don't cry when I see noob picks, but I definitely think you're bad yeah will just put this here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlps. I dont even like the guy but he bring some valid points In another one of his articles Sirlin actually talks about the idea of "soft bans". In Japan, some characters in fighting games are recognized as being OP against most other characters in the game, making the game a lot less fun because there are so few characters worth playing. So people just have kind of an unwritten rule against playing the character even though he isn't actually banned in competitive. I have nothing against playing to win, especially in competitive play but in casual play as well. Additionally I definitely think that people like run.at.me are overreacting and are way off base. That being said, I definitely understand the frustration of playing against 5-stacks/the same op heroes over and over again. Sirlin also has an article(I believe it's a followup to playing to win) that acknowledges the point that Yango makes about playing to improve vs playing to win. MM is different from competitive matches, and the "playing to win" attitude doesn't necessarily apply as much in MM as it does in competitive, where you should abuse the fuck out of anything you can in order to win. we did have softban in dota... Many tournaments in dota1 considering Lonedruid and Lycan or even shadow demon invoker to be default ban. Mek, necro, guinsoo... are limited per team etc.. Right now our softban is Armlet on bear, if that was too game breaking, Valve would have hot fixed by now? However they spent time to fix Slark dark pact instead :-/ the soft ban in Dota and in the case of Super SF 2:CE Akuma (iirc) are different. SSF2:CE Akuma is just broken and unlike Dota, there's no way to quickly fix it, that's way the soft ban was introduced. while the case of Armlet on bear, it get soft banned due to Dota1 parity ken so it's not the same kind of thing. a more apt analogy is Chen's controlling Roshan a few patch ago.
armlet on bear isn't banned anymore anyways, DSL undid that shit
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On May 10 2013 16:50 Mithhaike wrote:
For me tryharding is basically picking a lineup that shouldn't be appearing in a true CM games,
got a match where my team pick Riki, Meepo, SB, CM(me first random), AM.
Guess we're try harding since there's no way in hell you'll see that lineup in a 'true' CM games 
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On May 10 2013 17:06 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 17:05 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 16:08 NB wrote:On May 10 2013 15:49 eieio wrote:On May 10 2013 15:31 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 10:49 run.at.me wrote:
I'm sorry but there are definitely try hards in dota - while the game is competitive, it's also just a game - yet you see the nerds picking the ez nub heroes like nyx (seriously.. you don't pick nyx unless your a try hard noob)
They are labelled try hards because it is the equivalent of cheese in sc2.. Strategies that are much harder to counter than to execute.
While cheese in sc2 was generally accepted, nobody liked versing it and nobody respected it.
I don't cry when I see noob picks, but I definitely think you're bad yeah will just put this here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlps. I dont even like the guy but he bring some valid points In another one of his articles Sirlin actually talks about the idea of "soft bans". In Japan, some characters in fighting games are recognized as being OP against most other characters in the game, making the game a lot less fun because there are so few characters worth playing. So people just have kind of an unwritten rule against playing the character even though he isn't actually banned in competitive. I have nothing against playing to win, especially in competitive play but in casual play as well. Additionally I definitely think that people like run.at.me are overreacting and are way off base. That being said, I definitely understand the frustration of playing against 5-stacks/the same op heroes over and over again. Sirlin also has an article(I believe it's a followup to playing to win) that acknowledges the point that Yango makes about playing to improve vs playing to win. MM is different from competitive matches, and the "playing to win" attitude doesn't necessarily apply as much in MM as it does in competitive, where you should abuse the fuck out of anything you can in order to win. we did have softban in dota... Many tournaments in dota1 considering Lonedruid and Lycan or even shadow demon invoker to be default ban. Mek, necro, guinsoo... are limited per team etc.. Right now our softban is Armlet on bear, if that was too game breaking, Valve would have hot fixed by now? However they spent time to fix Slark dark pact instead :-/ the soft ban in Dota and in the case of Super SF 2:CE Akuma (iirc) are different. SSF2:CE Akuma is just broken and unlike Dota, there's no way to quickly fix it, that's way the soft ban was introduced. while the case of Armlet on bear, it get soft banned due to Dota1 parity ken so it's not the same kind of thing. a more apt analogy is Chen's controlling Roshan a few patch ago. armlet on bear isn't banned anymore anyways, DSL undid that shit
oh didnt know that, good then. If its in the game then its fair to use unless its an obvious bug like the Chen's Roshan or PL's Queling Blade. And the reason they keep fixing Slark is that they probably want him pickable in TI3, though not sure he's fit with the current 'meta'
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On May 10 2013 17:15 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 17:06 Shaella wrote:On May 10 2013 17:05 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 16:08 NB wrote:On May 10 2013 15:49 eieio wrote:On May 10 2013 15:31 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 10:49 run.at.me wrote:
I'm sorry but there are definitely try hards in dota - while the game is competitive, it's also just a game - yet you see the nerds picking the ez nub heroes like nyx (seriously.. you don't pick nyx unless your a try hard noob)
They are labelled try hards because it is the equivalent of cheese in sc2.. Strategies that are much harder to counter than to execute.
While cheese in sc2 was generally accepted, nobody liked versing it and nobody respected it.
I don't cry when I see noob picks, but I definitely think you're bad yeah will just put this here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlps. I dont even like the guy but he bring some valid points In another one of his articles Sirlin actually talks about the idea of "soft bans". In Japan, some characters in fighting games are recognized as being OP against most other characters in the game, making the game a lot less fun because there are so few characters worth playing. So people just have kind of an unwritten rule against playing the character even though he isn't actually banned in competitive. I have nothing against playing to win, especially in competitive play but in casual play as well. Additionally I definitely think that people like run.at.me are overreacting and are way off base. That being said, I definitely understand the frustration of playing against 5-stacks/the same op heroes over and over again. Sirlin also has an article(I believe it's a followup to playing to win) that acknowledges the point that Yango makes about playing to improve vs playing to win. MM is different from competitive matches, and the "playing to win" attitude doesn't necessarily apply as much in MM as it does in competitive, where you should abuse the fuck out of anything you can in order to win. we did have softban in dota... Many tournaments in dota1 considering Lonedruid and Lycan or even shadow demon invoker to be default ban. Mek, necro, guinsoo... are limited per team etc.. Right now our softban is Armlet on bear, if that was too game breaking, Valve would have hot fixed by now? However they spent time to fix Slark dark pact instead :-/ the soft ban in Dota and in the case of Super SF 2:CE Akuma (iirc) are different. SSF2:CE Akuma is just broken and unlike Dota, there's no way to quickly fix it, that's way the soft ban was introduced. while the case of Armlet on bear, it get soft banned due to Dota1 parity ken so it's not the same kind of thing. a more apt analogy is Chen's controlling Roshan a few patch ago. armlet on bear isn't banned anymore anyways, DSL undid that shit oh didnt know that, good then. If its in the game then its fair to use unless its an obvious bug like the Chen's Roshan or PL's Queling Blade. And the reason they keep fixing Slark is that they probably want him pickable in TI3, though not sure he's fit with the current 'meta'
he's been picked twice by Liquid now to great effect :3
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On May 10 2013 17:03 BurningSera wrote:On a related note: It is indeed very frustrating at times when some team tryharding against the other 'laid back' team but there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone wants to win. The best thing is obviously both teams tryharding to each other. Hopefully the solo mm helps the situation.
matchmaking should (and does) solve this anyway.
if someone plays super laid back and only does random stuff thats fun he will play in a lower region than someone who tries to give every game his best.
what i do find much more infuriating is when someone on your team decides that everyone should go super competitive in this pub now and just trys to smokegang everyone with everyone while i try to farm my necrobook on drow.
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On May 10 2013 17:15 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 17:06 Shaella wrote:On May 10 2013 17:05 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 16:08 NB wrote:On May 10 2013 15:49 eieio wrote:On May 10 2013 15:31 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 10:49 run.at.me wrote:
I'm sorry but there are definitely try hards in dota - while the game is competitive, it's also just a game - yet you see the nerds picking the ez nub heroes like nyx (seriously.. you don't pick nyx unless your a try hard noob)
They are labelled try hards because it is the equivalent of cheese in sc2.. Strategies that are much harder to counter than to execute.
While cheese in sc2 was generally accepted, nobody liked versing it and nobody respected it.
I don't cry when I see noob picks, but I definitely think you're bad yeah will just put this here http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.htmlps. I dont even like the guy but he bring some valid points In another one of his articles Sirlin actually talks about the idea of "soft bans". In Japan, some characters in fighting games are recognized as being OP against most other characters in the game, making the game a lot less fun because there are so few characters worth playing. So people just have kind of an unwritten rule against playing the character even though he isn't actually banned in competitive. I have nothing against playing to win, especially in competitive play but in casual play as well. Additionally I definitely think that people like run.at.me are overreacting and are way off base. That being said, I definitely understand the frustration of playing against 5-stacks/the same op heroes over and over again. Sirlin also has an article(I believe it's a followup to playing to win) that acknowledges the point that Yango makes about playing to improve vs playing to win. MM is different from competitive matches, and the "playing to win" attitude doesn't necessarily apply as much in MM as it does in competitive, where you should abuse the fuck out of anything you can in order to win. we did have softban in dota... Many tournaments in dota1 considering Lonedruid and Lycan or even shadow demon invoker to be default ban. Mek, necro, guinsoo... are limited per team etc.. Right now our softban is Armlet on bear, if that was too game breaking, Valve would have hot fixed by now? However they spent time to fix Slark dark pact instead :-/ the soft ban in Dota and in the case of Super SF 2:CE Akuma (iirc) are different. SSF2:CE Akuma is just broken and unlike Dota, there's no way to quickly fix it, that's way the soft ban was introduced. while the case of Armlet on bear, it get soft banned due to Dota1 parity ken so it's not the same kind of thing. a more apt analogy is Chen's controlling Roshan a few patch ago. armlet on bear isn't banned anymore anyways, DSL undid that shit oh didnt know that, good then. If its in the game then its fair to use unless its an obvious bug like the Chen's Roshan or PL's Queling Blade. And the reason they keep fixing Slark is that they probably want him pickable in TI3, though not sure he's fit with the current 'meta'
PL quelling blade bug?
nvm googled helped meg
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Armlet LD is arguably more impactful than quelling blade PL, its not as a big of an issue in the west since there is literally 1 team competent with him. But for a hero that is already FP material to get a free 40% ias is nothing short of gamebreaking for that hero.
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There's a softban on armlet sylla ? I didnt know that.
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Dota 1 has had a history of soft bans, for example Necrobook limitation and Guinsoo/Eul limitation
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On May 10 2013 17:10 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 16:50 Mithhaike wrote:
For me tryharding is basically picking a lineup that shouldn't be appearing in a true CM games, got a match where my team pick Riki, Meepo, SB, CM(me first random), AM. Guess we're try harding since there's no way in hell you'll see that lineup in a 'true' CM games
Haha touche, but I was refering to lineups with all the top tier heroes.
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On May 10 2013 18:07 Mithhaike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 17:10 sandyph wrote:On May 10 2013 16:50 Mithhaike wrote:
For me tryharding is basically picking a lineup that shouldn't be appearing in a true CM games, got a match where my team pick Riki, Meepo, SB, CM(me first random), AM. Guess we're try harding since there's no way in hell you'll see that lineup in a 'true' CM games Haha touche, but I was refering to lineups with all the top tier heroes.
If you play AP you accept that such lineups can and will exist. You can call it tryharding and think they are playing somehow wrong, but it really is the same if I choose to view lasthitting tryharding. Then I could reassure myself that I am actually better than my opponents, I just choose not to try so hard. Damn lasthitters, pubs are for autoattacking!
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Unwritten rule back when not as many heroes were out(back when he was op)
You don't pick fucking Lycan.
Sounds like we need a tryhardless mode where the top 20 heroes are autobanned, you can't smoke gank, you can't move from your lane until 15 min(roaming is fucking tryhard guys), You can't ward or deward. You can't bottlecrow(thats for fucking tryhards. You don't sentry preemptively(holy shit calm down tryhard). Also you can't get Battlefury on AM(thats for tryhards).
etc.
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On May 10 2013 18:23 Kipsate wrote:
Unwritten rule back when not as many heroes were out(back when he was op)
You don't pick fucking Lycan.
Sounds like we need a tryhardless mode where the top 20 heroes are autobanned, you can't smoke gank, you can't move from your lane until 15 min(roaming is fucking tryhard guys), You can't ward or deward. You can't bottlecrow(thats for fucking tryhards. You don't sentry preemptively(holy shit calm down tryhard). Also you can't get Battlefury on AM(thats for tryhards).
etc.
Goddamn Naga/tide/enigma/ds pickers.
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tryharding is playing with 5-s
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On May 10 2013 18:23 Kipsate wrote:
Unwritten rule back when not as many heroes were out(back when he was op)
You don't pick fucking Lycan.
Sounds like we need a tryhardless mode where the top 20 heroes are autobanned, you can't smoke gank, you can't move from your lane until 15 min(roaming is fucking tryhard guys), You can't ward or deward. You can't bottlecrow(thats for fucking tryhards. You don't sentry preemptively(holy shit calm down tryhard). Also you can't get Battlefury on AM(thats for tryhards).
etc.
So, we can still split push and take down towers before 30 mins? Still too tryhard.
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It's hard to define try hard.
For me,tryhards are people trying to do their best to win the game and playing as competitively as possible.
However,that doesn't mean tryhard doesn't enjoyed their game.
It just mean they take more joy in winning the match than having fun.
And everybody wants to win.
But You must also accept that you can never win all the time.
There will be losses here and there.
And you will also have games where your teammates lose their lane and feed.
That is normal.
Some tryhards will then start to complain and flaming the other person.
And that is normal.
That's why I rarely solo queue.
It's better to go with friends preferably 4-5 stacks.
Then you can have fun better that way.
Dota is a team game after all.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
I feel like we have this discussion every couple weeks.
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On May 10 2013 18:36 Firebolt145 wrote:
I feel like we have this discussion every couple weeks.
A 10 page discussion on a really subjective/situational topic? yeah
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pooling in pub is really tryhard
I heard Erasme gets pooled every game because he persuades his teammates with his sexy ass accent.
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Tryharding = 4/5 stack picking in AP as if it were CM whiteout bans and playing accordingly.
I have nothing against it, it just tends to lead to very onesided games and you wonder "why don't you go CM?".
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EPT
