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On April 14 2013 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 08:11 Shaella wrote:
>implying there's a way to balance every hero so they're all viable
Yeah ok certainly it's possible. We're not really far from that situation. There's maybe ~10 heroes, probably less, that I can think of that I have never seen in a pro match in this patch alone. Viable doesn't necessarily mean oft picked. Look at all the int heroes, for example. There's what, 36? http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Dota_2_WikiOf those 36 heroes, I have seen all of them in competitive play in the last 6 months except for WD and Pugna, and I'm sure that's only because I haven't watched enough games. Then the agi heroes: NTH has picked Razor. I haven't seen sniper, and I haven't seen dusa. I've seen every one of the other heroes in a competitive match. And finally, str heroes. I've seen literally all of them except Huskar and bara. That's 6 heroes out of ~100. e: forgot, I haven't seen anyone play zeus. 7 heroes.
The point i'm making is that look at the pool of whats actually played/banned
there are 4 basically PERMA bans, Bat/nyx/kotl/wisp
Now, if 6.78 was released tomorrow, and nerfed all 4 of those heros down to bloodseeker tier, there wouldn't magically be a situation where we would't have 4 new permabanned heros. Of course there's be 4 new heros that are always banned, something is -always- too strong in a pool of character with this many variables, new top 4 bans would probably be like...
Mag/sylla/DS/Naix, and then you have this whole new group of heros that were in the place those 4 were before, IE picked like seriously all the time
That is why 'balance' is impossible in this kind of game
Its not a bad thing, its just a reality of the game
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that's not the same as viability.
If you reduce the strength of magnus/kotl/bat you'll probably see more variety in the first phase bans. I agree that those first heroes who are banned a lot are a bit too powerful. However, there's not many of those heroes. Wisp is not permabanned, it's only feared by Western teams really. Even in the west Wisp doesn't see that many first phase bans in comparison to nyx or bat or KotL.
Nyx is seeing less first phase bans now too because of the carapace change and the impale change.
There's a distinct middle ground before "nerfing to BS tier" and keeping them as they are. You seem to not understand this mentality for some reason.
Look at Chen. A single spell change took him from top tier to picked reasonably often, but not overpowered. Similar changes to furion, DS, antimage, Leshrac, and TA resulted similarly. Even heavily nerfed heroes like Lycan and Morphling have been seeing plenty of games, though those are probably extreme cases.
In the opposite direction you see heroes like clock, alchemist, bane, weaver: rarely seen before but very small changes made them reasonable picks in a lot of situations.
I don't think it's all that out of the ordinary to see a game in the near future where very few heroes are universally powerful across regions. At this point in time there's only like 8-10 heroes like that in both Asia and EU/NA, and I would argue that partly it's because of the current ideas and attitudes toward the game.
Bat/nyx/KotL/Magnus/naix/sylla/luna/PL/DS/SD. About as many heroes as there are at the bottom.
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On April 14 2013 08:54 Teton wrote:
We just need -cd :D
since we are now being weekly updated. I hope -cd would be a mode where the pool is somewhat static for a week. I want to see a small meta rotation around the ban/picking in the pool etc... In away similar to LoL champions rotation.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
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i can confirm that -DM is what's required
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On April 14 2013 07:51 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 07:37 ketomai wrote:On April 14 2013 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:36 Teton wrote:On April 14 2013 05:57 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 13 2013 20:00 hydrogg wrote:On April 13 2013 18:30 NB wrote:On April 13 2013 18:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i wonder how long icefrog is going to keep patching the game
does he plan on dictating how the game is going to be played, through continuous patches? or is he looking for the perfect balance (starcraft), so that the game will eventually evolve on its own. imo icefrog patching the game over and over just to change the meta is not the best solution. The purpose of patches isnt always for balancing but also to producing new contents. By introducing new hero, you providing new contents to the game which will disturb the meta. There were many patches in the past that were considered overall 'balanced' but you have to move on eventually. Without new contents, players wont get attached and will grow tired of the game. Dota doesnt sound like a very good game if people will get bored of it and the meta cant change without patches. Other games I play (Counter Strike 1.6 and Brood War) don't get balance patches and the meta still changes and people still play it. wat when was the last time CS 1.6 had a change in gameplay? It's a FPS. it's way harder to balance a game with 100heroes I was just confused as to how the CS 1.6 meta "still" changes. BW meta hasn't changed in ages either. Been at least 6 years since the last major change, which was Bisu build PvZ. Only the maps change. (I guess there was that corsair build Jangbi used in OSL vT but...kinda one-off thing really) dota meta obviously fluctuates a lot because of both balance and content patches, but I know I (and lots of other people) would still play the game forever even if I knew the game would have no new heroes starting tomorrow. If you think that, you're not looking deep enough. I quit playing/watching much BW when zergs were doing 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra zvp and facing SK terran with mass vessels in the late game zvt. I watch a few games a couple years later and they're doing something like 4 base 7 hatch openings and facing mech transition terrans in the late game. Even before that you could notice tons of nuances in matchups like PvZ where they developed a lot of variations like delayed muta openings or different zealot timings. timing changes were because of the maps. Those aren't meta changes. You could make the same argument for the builds. Hydra builds became less popular in ZvT because of the maps; they were still used. Changing a build with timing is akin to building a different item on a hero. It's not really a meta change.
5rax +1 was response to all the early 3rds off 3hat muta, and the mech switch was a transition from that
3hat spire -> 5/6 hat hydra was a direct response to 2base corsair openings
some changes were partially due to the rotating map pool, like the move from carriers to arbiters and vult-heavy TvT, but there were a lot of major shifts after bisu revolutionized pvz
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On April 14 2013 09:55 Kipsate wrote:
you mean we need -DM.
isnt it already be moded by the dota2warehouse people?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Slightly OT I guess but Fantasy Mech builds, the usage of Queens in ZvT(although not always succesfully), the appearance of 3hatch hydra vs Protoss and the Mass Wraiths instead of Dropships were quite appeareant in the final stages of BW. On the other hand, although hive tech was ocasionally used, ZvZ has remained the same for all of the years(which didn't even detract hugely from the matchup itself because it was always an extremly tense micro battle).
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Dota is a game of trends, even if every single hero was 100% equally good, there'd still be a pool of heroes that would be the primary picks.
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On April 14 2013 10:09 Unleashing wrote:
Dota is a game of trends, even if every single hero was 100% equally good, there'd still be a pool of heroes that would be the primary picks.
pretty much this
And people would call for nerfs on those heros
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Netherlands45349 Posts
And I have to say, do I get bored of Lifestealer, Syllabear, Gyrocopter and Phantom Lancer?Yes, however I also think its a product of having too many online matches. If we had less then people could prepare better and use certain strategies. Look at G-league where Mushi pulled out a Mirana mid, IceIceIce used a juggernaut offlane and Rattlesnakes used a Dark Seer Clockwerk Dual lane. These strategies require time to not only develop but practice as well. If you have to play every day then yes stuff gets boring. These happen in the West too but are far less appeareant because they have to play so many matches a week, then you just run with what you know, and that is the Lifestealer/Nyx/Gyro etc.
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honestly I think we are more likely to see pocket strats in major tournaments like TI and G League and Dreamhack.
Teams have few incentives to play those heroes often in online tournaments if they are harder to play, because of the diminished surprise factor and because other teams won't practice against something they see rarely.
Like yeah mirana mid and jug offlane are cool, but they I don't think they would work if you could predict them.
Things that are difficult to combat in dota IMO are usually the things you can predict but still not do much to change. Examples would be pre 6.75 lycan or morphling; you could predict the lycan would jungle, and you might have been able to slow him down, but you wouldn't be able to stop him without a serious overcommitment (which would result in the other 4 being too hard to stop) You could also predict your opponents would safe lane the morphline but still there's not much you could have done to shut down a hero with 3 survival skills at level 6 with overall good base stats.
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On April 14 2013 09:07 NB wrote:since we are now being weekly updated. I hope -cd would be a mode where the pool is somewhat static for a week. I want to see a small meta rotation around the ban/picking in the pool etc... In away similar to LoL champions rotation.
-cd just makes each game different
and yeah i'm up for -ardm, fucking love it
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Tobi & Sing matchmaking on Sing's stream. hahahaha
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Boy, messed around and got a giant boost of FPS on my laptop. Traded a chen mount for a mirana mount. It was a good day.
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hey peeps i have a stream now :D twitch.tv/mithhaike ...come see me get raped in SEA MM first hand!
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From Playdota:
Captains Draft. 24 random heroes are selected. Then Blue and Pink take turns banning heroes, then picking heroes. Then the players on each team pick from their team's heroes.
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-wtf
-ardm
Best fun ever until the asshole who gets zeus
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On April 14 2013 16:22 Incze wrote:
-wtf
-ardm
Best fun ever until the asshole who gets zeus
Or Silencer. There really should be an option to ban a few heroes in -wtf mode that are obviously ridiculous.
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EPT
