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On March 22 2013 03:19 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:16 WindWolf wrote:
In order to talk about something that isn't drama, what big changes are you expecting in 6.78? Buffs to overnerfed heroes (naga morph , maybe a bit to lycan) , more late game carry buffs (spec, medusa), more buffs, maybe some minor nerfs if the 6.77c doesn't work
Why would you buff Lycan? He's in a pretty good place right now. Imo IceFrog should take the other route and nerf the strong heroes to a Morphling level.
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United States47024 Posts
Morphling is "ok" right now, but he's "ok" in a way that suits neither how the game is played right now, nor how Icefrog wants the game to play. The problem is that the Morphling nerfs hit his early/midgame when the game currently favors heavy early-midgame action and high teamfight participation from carries. So even though Morphling is strong lategame, it's awkward to pick him because the game rarely suits a hero that's that weak midgame.
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I would expect more buffs to Treant Protector, like 20 more dmg.
PL changes, buff to underused heroes, something about bottle crowing (tho i feels this is a hard thing to modify) and new heroes!
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Really I think if they revert the eBlade change it might be enough to make morph a niche pick.
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On March 22 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote:
Morphling is "ok" right now, but he's "ok" in a way that suits neither how the game is played right now, nor how Icefrog wants the game to play. The problem is that the Morphling nerfs hit his early/midgame when the game currently favors heavy early-midgame action and high teamfight participation from carries. So even though Morphling is strong lategame, it's awkward to pick him because the game rarely suits a hero that's that weak midgame.
I wouldn't even say he's THAT strong in the lategame in terms of his overall teamfight strength - heroes such as PL have just as strong, if not stronger, of a lategame, and are much more relevant in the midgame and earlygame than morph is.
On March 22 2013 03:27 Numy wrote:
Really I think if they revert the eBlade change it might be enough to make morph a niche pick.
He's a bit of a niche pick now (Well, Orange). I think if you give him some base damage and maybe hit attack during waveform (or waveform aoe), he can be picked in situations where you want split pushing and the benefits morph brings.
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Morph is funny because he's a strong late-game carry with 3 strong survivability skills and 2 strong nukes. Something has to give, and in this case its his terrible base stats and kinda abusive mana costs. Unfortunately, if you re-buff those things then he becomes, well, unkillable, with strong nukes and hard to outcarry. It was pretty clear that TI2 morph was OP.
Maybe Kotl+Morph should be a thing? 
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United States47024 Posts
I think the mana cost changes are the issue. It's too hard to play Morph with midgame teamfight itemization (Aquila Yasha BKB) because of how demanding his mana need is compared to what it used to be--hence why it feels like he demands Linkens.
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On March 22 2013 03:16 WindWolf wrote:
In order to talk about something that isn't drama, what big changes are you expecting in 6.78?
PL-Diffusal nerf. At least I hope so.
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On March 22 2013 03:34 TheYango wrote:
I think the mana cost changes are the issue. It's too hard to play Morph with midgame teamfight itemization (Aquila Yasha BKB) because of how demanding his mana need is compared to what it used to be--hence why it feels like he demands Linkens.
Well, his mana, in my opinion, hasn't been hit that hard during teamfights. Usually, pre-EB, you won't be shifting points in stats drastically, which is the only thing that really has been nerfed. He DOES have mana issues, certainly, but they have more or less always been there.
+ Show Spoiler +insert comment about drums aquila soul ring build here
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On March 22 2013 03:35 hooahah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:16 WindWolf wrote:
In order to talk about something that isn't drama, what big changes are you expecting in 6.78? PL-Diffusal nerf. At least I hope so.
If PL get's nerfed it will be a reverse agi gain nerf and maybe the magic resist on ulti ( it's pretty ridic tbh) or illu duration
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That's why the EB mana cost nerf hit him so hard I feel. He does have mana issues with just aquila and EB. Don't really see why they did that to EB in the first place so it seems most logical change they could revert without overbuffing.
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On March 22 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote:
Morphling is "ok" right now, but he's "ok" in a way that suits neither how the game is played right now, nor how Icefrog wants the game to play. The problem is that the Morphling nerfs hit his early/midgame when the game currently favors heavy early-midgame action and high teamfight participation from carries. So even though Morphling is strong lategame, it's awkward to pick him because the game rarely suits a hero that's that weak midgame.
I'd rather have a total pool of ok heroes, rather than a pool of heroes, that are divided into something like worth it, situational and not worth it.
Essentially I'd prefer it if you wouldn't have to ban heroes, for the sake of banning the hero [like NA or KotL atm], but rather you ban them, because they conflict with the strategy you are planning to execute. You'd also be picking heroes, not because they can do freaking everything, but rather because you need them for your strategy. I knoew this would result in drafting being "more obvious" in a sense, but that way you'd aim for every hero fitting in a particular strategies.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 22 2013 03:37 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:34 TheYango wrote:
I think the mana cost changes are the issue. It's too hard to play Morph with midgame teamfight itemization (Aquila Yasha BKB) because of how demanding his mana need is compared to what it used to be--hence why it feels like he demands Linkens. Well, his mana, in my opinion, hasn't been hit that hard during teamfights. Usually, pre-EB, you won't be shifting points in stats drastically, which is the only thing that really has been nerfed. He DOES have mana issues, certainly, but they have more or less always been there. + Show Spoiler +insert comment about drums aquila soul ring build here
Even if you're doing minor shifts, a couple seconds of shifting is significantly more mana than it was before.
The fact that you need to consider Soul Ring means that you're forced to invest in a 800 gold zero-combat-stat item which in and of itself is damaging to a hero's midgame combat power.
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On March 22 2013 03:40 Talron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote:
Morphling is "ok" right now, but he's "ok" in a way that suits neither how the game is played right now, nor how Icefrog wants the game to play. The problem is that the Morphling nerfs hit his early/midgame when the game currently favors heavy early-midgame action and high teamfight participation from carries. So even though Morphling is strong lategame, it's awkward to pick him because the game rarely suits a hero that's that weak midgame. I'd rather have a total pool of ok heroes, rather than a pool of heroes, that are divided into something like worth it, situational and not worth it. Essentially I'd prefer it if you wouldn't have to ban heroes, for the sake of banning the hero [like NA or KotL atm], but rather you ban them, because they conflict with the strategy you are planning to execute. You'd also be picking heroes, not because they can do freaking everything, but rather because you need them for your strategy. I knoew this would result in drafting being "more obvious" in a sense, but that way you'd aim for every hero fitting in a particular strategies.
That just means you want every hero to be situational where there is zero overlap of heroes. Realistically it just won't happen. It's impossible to have a game this big have zero overlap. There will always be heroes that fill similar roles but are just better than their counterparts. There will also always be heroes that people prioritize over others even if they aren't more powerful. Sometimes it just happens that everyone views a set of heroes as good even if they aren't in fact better than the rest.
EDIT: I think a perfect example is in fact the morph we have been discussing. Pre-TI2 he was seen every now and then but wasn't viewed as a top priority pick. Then you get TI2 with no changes to the hero becomes #1. We don't know if it might have shifted after that to him being lower priority since he was gutted straight after but it is possible that the cycle might have continued.
Another example is wisp going from never played to being most contested to being a niche pick. It's partly due to human nature. The majority of people prefer to follow rather than lead and thus you get trends forming irrespective on actual balance.
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On March 22 2013 03:42 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:37 Comeh wrote:On March 22 2013 03:34 TheYango wrote:
I think the mana cost changes are the issue. It's too hard to play Morph with midgame teamfight itemization (Aquila Yasha BKB) because of how demanding his mana need is compared to what it used to be--hence why it feels like he demands Linkens. Well, his mana, in my opinion, hasn't been hit that hard during teamfights. Usually, pre-EB, you won't be shifting points in stats drastically, which is the only thing that really has been nerfed. He DOES have mana issues, certainly, but they have more or less always been there. + Show Spoiler +insert comment about drums aquila soul ring build here Even if you're doing minor shifts, a couple seconds of shifting is significantly more mana than it was before. The fact that you need to consider Soul Ring means that you're forced to invest in a 800 gold zero-combat-stat item which in and of itself is damaging to a hero's midgame combat power.
Oh don't get me wrong, soul ring is kind of awful. I just hate going Linken on him, and I like farming jungle camps with waveform when the lane isn't available to me.
(in pubs).
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United States47024 Posts
On March 22 2013 03:43 Numy wrote:
That just means you want every hero to be situational where there is zero overlap of heroes. Realistically it just won't happen. It's impossible to have a game this big have zero overlap. There will always be heroes that fill similar roles but are just better than their counterparts. There will also always be heroes that people prioritize over others even if they aren't more powerful. Sometimes it just happens that everyone views a set of heroes as good even if they aren't in fact better than the rest.
This.
Even if you theoretically had a game where every hero was perfectly balanced, people wouldn't see it that way, due to the nature of how people play the game. Weaker players copy stronger players and weaker teams copy stronger teams. So even if in this perfectly balanced DotA everything was of even power level, and iG was playing team comps that fit their style--other teams would follow iG's picks because it's iG, and create the perception that those heroes were stronger than others.
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For most heroes the difference between being situational and being the current meta is a few buffs or nerfs.
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On March 22 2013 03:43 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:40 Talron wrote:On March 22 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote:
Morphling is "ok" right now, but he's "ok" in a way that suits neither how the game is played right now, nor how Icefrog wants the game to play. The problem is that the Morphling nerfs hit his early/midgame when the game currently favors heavy early-midgame action and high teamfight participation from carries. So even though Morphling is strong lategame, it's awkward to pick him because the game rarely suits a hero that's that weak midgame. I'd rather have a total pool of ok heroes, rather than a pool of heroes, that are divided into something like worth it, situational and not worth it. Essentially I'd prefer it if you wouldn't have to ban heroes, for the sake of banning the hero [like NA or KotL atm], but rather you ban them, because they conflict with the strategy you are planning to execute. You'd also be picking heroes, not because they can do freaking everything, but rather because you need them for your strategy. I knoew this would result in drafting being "more obvious" in a sense, but that way you'd aim for every hero fitting in a particular strategies. That just means you want every hero to be situational where there is zero overlap of heroes. Realistically it just won't happen. It's impossible to have a game this big have zero overlap. There will always be heroes that fill similar roles but are just better than their counterparts. There will also always be heroes that people prioritize over others even if they aren't more powerful. Sometimes it just happens that everyone views a set of heroes as good even if they aren't in fact better than the rest. EDIT: I think a perfect example is in fact the morph we have been discussing. Pre-TI2 he was seen every now and then but wasn't viewed as a top priority pick. Then you get TI2 with no changes to the hero becomes #1. We don't know if it might have shifted after that to him being lower priority since he was gutted straight after but it is possible that the cycle might have continued. Another example is wisp going from never played to being most contested to being a niche pick. It's partly due to human nature. The majority of people prefer to follow rather than lead and thus you get trends forming irrespective on actual balance.
I know it's pretty much impossible to do and a very utopic thought of mine to being with, but it's what I'd wish for a game. nevertheless I completely agree with you.
Things I'd like to see for 6.78 in particular: Buffs to linkens - Reduce overall cost in some way. Maybe recipecost reduction to something around 700~. Buffs to vanguard, at least make it disassembleable [is that even a word?]
Hoerwise I'd like to have the goldbounty on Spiderlings reduced again, but in exchange make them deal less damage to heroes again. Increase Aphothic shield castrange by just a bit [not the ridiculous range it used to have] It's 500 now, make it 600 - used to be 800 some years ago. Make Frostmourne a non-buffplacer or remake the skill as a whole. There's a lot more I'd like to change, but I wouldn't want to post my very own 6.78 wannabe changelog, lol.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not just impossible to do. Even if you got it right, you'd have no way of knowing that you got it right, because even in a perfectly balanced game, people would still bandwagon super hard anyway.
I support non-Buff Placer Frostmourne because it would make Boots OoV Abaddon with random gold awesome.
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It would basically appear as if it wasn't perfectly balanced which would make you do balance changes which would in turn destroy the perfect balance you had achieved prior. One way to try avoid this I feel is having long patch cycles. This way you have a greater time to try weed what is just bandwagoning and what is actual imbalance.
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EPT
