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On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament.
Should prob read followup post since think you misunderstood. It mainly shows the values the region(s) involved in theh tournament assign to heroes or trends.
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On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament.
Because a lot of the people in and around China have said "Gyro is a useless hero here" more or less. It has to do with the fact that he does everything alright, but doesn't stand out as being superior at anything. It makes sense to be honest, but I am curious if/when he will fade from the western scene.
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On March 13 2013 05:47 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament. Chinese and Western Drafts have a history of being very different which can lead to some one region either over emphasizing a specific hero or vice versa.
Ok, and since when is diversity in the scene a bad thing? Chinese meta before was playing extremely safe (almost no kills for 30 min ) and then taking teamfight with better engagement. The fact that gyro is used in western lineups just demonstrates a different tactic in the game. I don't think u can say that the chinese draft are better than the western one, it is just a different tactic, now maybe China executes it better.
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On March 13 2013 05:53 leloup wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament. Because a lot of the people in and around China have said "Gyro is a useless hero here" more or less. It has to do with the fact that he does everything alright, but doesn't stand out as being superior at anything. It makes sense to be honest, but I am curious if/when he will fade from the western scene.
Well he has some special things about him, he is one of the only carries that has an incorporated aoe without it being cleave or requiring items. While it is true that flak cannon doesn't increase ur damage, it combines into this awsome lategame skill that makes u able to hit all 5 targets even if they are all spread out. If a gyro gets a good position in a battle u have to focus him down or u will die. Now if u play around with the draft and create a non targetable bkb lineup u can destroy the opponent team, or have abilities that bait others ( see fiend grip baits roar, bkb after).
I think gyro is one of the strongest carries because he is able to come online so fast and requires little.
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United States47024 Posts
Well seeing as the discussion was related to the issue of "X and Y carries should be nerfed", the point is that Gyro doesn't need a nerf for the same reasons Wisp doesn't.
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On March 13 2013 05:53 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:47 Kuroeeah wrote:On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament. Chinese and Western Drafts have a history of being very different which can lead to some one region either over emphasizing a specific hero or vice versa. Ok, and since when is diversity in the scene a bad thing? Chinese meta before was playing extremely safe (almost no kills for 30 min ) and then taking teamfight with better engagement. The fact that gyro is used in western lineups just demonstrates a different tactic in the game. I don't think u can say that the chinese draft are better than the western one, it is just a different tactic, now maybe China executes it better.
Uh the Chinese played that way because it fit the version well and changed to this more agressive gameplay because of the changes made recently. Its not really about outdrafting, its about how you use the heros since as stated earlier, luna and Gyros roles are close to identical.
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On March 13 2013 05:53 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:47 Kuroeeah wrote:On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament. Chinese and Western Drafts have a history of being very different which can lead to some one region either over emphasizing a specific hero or vice versa. Ok, and since when is diversity in the scene a bad thing? Chinese meta before was playing extremely safe (almost no kills for 30 min ) and then taking teamfight with better engagement. The fact that gyro is used in western lineups just demonstrates a different tactic in the game. I don't think u can say that the chinese draft are better than the western one, it is just a different tactic, now maybe China executes it better.
Where in my post did I state that it was a bad thing? In fact where did I even bring the notion of have a preference or bias on one region over the other?
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On March 13 2013 05:38 TheYango wrote:
Compare Gyro to Luna. They are similar heroes, but have distinct advantages that make one more favorable than the other in the regions where they're more commonly played (Gyro is picked far more often than Luna in the West while the opposite is true in China). Gyro is stronger than Luna in gank/solo kill scenarios (two long-range nukes/disables that assist/set up ganks very well, Barrage is strong in Xv1 scenarios where you can safely approach to use it), while Luna is stronger in early 5-man DotA (aura for pushing/teamfighting power, powerful teamfight ultimate, Lucent Beam has longer effective range than Rocket Barrage making it less unwieldy in big fights). The former has a lot of usefulness in Western games for punishing errors and overextending the same way Wisp does, but in the cleaner 5-man oriented play of Chinese DotA, Luna is more useful.
Good analysis - though Gyro is still good because:
Rocket barrage is still good in teamfights, and its not unlikely to get a majority off of it on 1-2 targets, particularly when combined with his flak cannon and call down.
Flak cannon is a great 5-man teamfight ability, and will do a lot of damage in supports the entire game and scales great.
Calldown is a great midgame teamfight ability and you will almost always hit at least 2 targets, and synergizes great with magnus.
Lane independent hero, which everyone loves (can mid, can carry).
I think this hero still has a place in China.
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United States47024 Posts
All of those are analogous to Luna's counterpart skills. It's just that the specific advantages Gyro has over Luna favor pick-offs and Xv1s, while Luna's specific advantages favor 5-man pushing/teamfighting.
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Gyro might also be perfectly viable, but using it would have required thinking and practicing lineups around the hero, something that LGD.int likely didn't have time for with 10 days (3-4 of which before teams like TongFu, DK, and LGD.cn got back to base).
The biggest difference in Western and Chinese lineups is that Chinese lineups are thought of as entire sets while the western teams emphasize the individual heroes of a lineup significantly more. While you can perfectly throw roflcoptor into a random western lineup because of its invidivually oriented nature and comparative lack of overall gameplan, doing so in Chinese would invite diaster. The fact that Chinese teams most almost exclusively in mutally supporting units after the first 15 minutes makes roflcoptor really only stronger than luna in safe lane situations, in which most competent Chinese teams can keep away/kill offlaners most of the times to begin with.
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On March 13 2013 05:59 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:38 TheYango wrote:
Compare Gyro to Luna. They are similar heroes, but have distinct advantages that make one more favorable than the other in the regions where they're more commonly played (Gyro is picked far more often than Luna in the West while the opposite is true in China). Gyro is stronger than Luna in gank/solo kill scenarios (two long-range nukes/disables that assist/set up ganks very well, Barrage is strong in Xv1 scenarios where you can safely approach to use it), while Luna is stronger in early 5-man DotA (aura for pushing/teamfighting power, powerful teamfight ultimate, Lucent Beam has longer effective range than Rocket Barrage making it less unwieldy in big fights). The former has a lot of usefulness in Western games for punishing errors and overextending the same way Wisp does, but in the cleaner 5-man oriented play of Chinese DotA, Luna is more useful. Good analysis - though Gyro is still good because: Rocket barrage is still good in teamfights, and its not unlikely to get a majority off of it on 1-2 targets, particularly when combined with his flak cannon and call down. Flak cannon is a great 5-man teamfight ability, and will do a lot of damage in supports the entire game and scales great. Calldown is a great midgame teamfight ability and you will almost always hit at least 2 targets, and synergizes great with magnus. Lane independent hero, which everyone loves (can mid, can carry). I think this hero still has a place in China.
Getting away with a Gyro mid is pretty risky though, since a farm dependend hero with no escape mechanism is always hard to pull off.
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On March 13 2013 05:58 TheYango wrote:
Well seeing as the discussion was related to the issue of "X and Y carries should be nerfed", the point is that Gyro doesn't need a nerf for the same reasons Wisp doesn't.
Kky brought up really good points on talk dota. When Synderen was basically ranting about Wisp and how it changes the dynamic of the game, Kky remarked that Wisp is a hero that you can play or draft around even stating that Mouz only lost against Wisp once and defended that he was balanced. You CAN stop or punish Wisp if you play around him (weak laning phase, don't get caught out of position, etc)
Nyx and Dark Seer on the otherhand are versatile in any almost lane setup and there isn't much you can do to even stop a Spiked Carapaced Nyx running around and stunning heroes throwing spells at each other.
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On March 13 2013 06:03 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:59 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:38 TheYango wrote:
Compare Gyro to Luna. They are similar heroes, but have distinct advantages that make one more favorable than the other in the regions where they're more commonly played (Gyro is picked far more often than Luna in the West while the opposite is true in China). Gyro is stronger than Luna in gank/solo kill scenarios (two long-range nukes/disables that assist/set up ganks very well, Barrage is strong in Xv1 scenarios where you can safely approach to use it), while Luna is stronger in early 5-man DotA (aura for pushing/teamfighting power, powerful teamfight ultimate, Lucent Beam has longer effective range than Rocket Barrage making it less unwieldy in big fights). The former has a lot of usefulness in Western games for punishing errors and overextending the same way Wisp does, but in the cleaner 5-man oriented play of Chinese DotA, Luna is more useful. Good analysis - though Gyro is still good because: Rocket barrage is still good in teamfights, and its not unlikely to get a majority off of it on 1-2 targets, particularly when combined with his flak cannon and call down. Flak cannon is a great 5-man teamfight ability, and will do a lot of damage in supports the entire game and scales great. Calldown is a great midgame teamfight ability and you will almost always hit at least 2 targets, and synergizes great with magnus. Lane independent hero, which everyone loves (can mid, can carry). I think this hero still has a place in China. Getting away with a Gyro mid is pretty risky though, since a farm dependend hero with no escape mechanism is always hard to pull off.
This is true.
(RIP me in no wards 3man nyx furion timbersaw ganks on me mid)
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On March 13 2013 05:53 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:47 Kuroeeah wrote:On March 13 2013 05:40 Darkren wrote:On March 13 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:On March 13 2013 05:25 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:23 Comeh wrote:On March 13 2013 05:21 Shaella wrote:On March 13 2013 05:16 Haee wrote:On March 13 2013 05:07 Shaella wrote:
PL isn't even the dominant carry in the comp scene. That by far goes to Gyro, Sylla, and Naix. Gyro, Lone Druid and Naix can either contribute earlier in the game or have versatile laning options. Naix can dominate tri-lanes because of his rage, Lone Druid can off lane successfully and so on. PL on the other hand needs his farm and levels (dat 4.2 agi gain) to be of significance. Is that to say PL is fine? I don't think so. Maybe his agi gain is a bit high? But the only reason PL is being played is because he's pretty much the only hard carry that can fight early enough to deal with the crazy midgame carries like Gyro/naix/LD/Luna. We see less and less Antimage because antimage suffers from being trilaned against a lot more than PL does, and because Antimage often can't contribute to fights at all until he has bfury/manta up, whereas PL can contribute with just Drums/diffu, which is far less gold PL is a very small problem balance wise, and once again, he's RARELY picked unless the team also has Kotl. I agree. I think PL needs to be touched - but only a small change for him. Something rather small to fix him should be enough (I like the idea of nerfing one aspect of his ultimate a bit). I think Gyro (a small one), Naix, Nyx, and maybe batrider could use a nerf as well though (maybe a small one for LD as well). I'm undecided whether or not wisp is fine or not. I think wisp is fine in the comp scene, i mean he's not played in china for a reason. The same is true of Gyro, though. Neither team gave the hero a second look at G-League finals. Why are people so uptight about the pro scene, the fact that gyro wasn't picked in the g league finals doesn't indicate nothing about the hero expect that he was not pick during that specific tournament. Chinese and Western Drafts have a history of being very different which can lead to some one region either over emphasizing a specific hero or vice versa. Ok, and since when is diversity in the scene a bad thing? Chinese meta before was playing extremely safe (almost no kills for 30 min ) and then taking teamfight with better engagement. The fact that gyro is used in western lineups just demonstrates a different tactic in the game. I don't think u can say that the chinese draft are better than the western one, it is just a different tactic, now maybe China executes it better.
It's because dota revolves around the chinese scene because it's universally accepted they are better. If it doesn't work well in the chinese scene, usually it means it's because of execution level and what the chinese do, and nothing to do with how well a player can play the hero because there are definitely people out there who can play the hero just as well as the 24124 western players who play him. I'm just gonna use an extreme example. Lich is very good at low levels because of the opponent's poor positioning but it's not a good hero after a certain point. One could say the same for gyro/wisp.
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Meh GD Show kinda disappointing.
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Wisp has been tested and found somewhat wanting in most situations by the Chinese wheras gyro has not. gyro might be a good hero, but that'll come out in the next few months when teams have the time to study and play around it. The only things for certain is that the way western teams play wisp/gyro right now would be completely ineffective in the Chinese scene.
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GD Show always lacks direction without Hellspawn there to argue/make a big deal out of stuff the other people on the show would skip.
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Now while we're at it, lets hate at gyro (because why not)
cus that copter does waay too fucking much damage with that rocket barrage !
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On March 13 2013 06:47 Iplaythings wrote:Now while we're at it, lets hate at gyro (because why not) cus that copter does waay too fucking much damage with that rocket barrage !
I don't hate gyro. I think he is pretty darn good in this patch and maybe he deserves some nerfs but I don't hate him. Shooting ALL the zombies is fun  (aka screw undying I'm glad somebody rapes him  )
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On March 13 2013 06:06 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 05:58 TheYango wrote:
Well seeing as the discussion was related to the issue of "X and Y carries should be nerfed", the point is that Gyro doesn't need a nerf for the same reasons Wisp doesn't. Kky brought up really good points on talk dota. When Synderen was basically ranting about Wisp and how it changes the dynamic of the game, Kky remarked that Wisp is a hero that you can play or draft around even stating that Mouz only lost against Wisp once and defended that he was balanced. You CAN stop or punish Wisp if you play around him (weak laning phase, don't get caught out of position, etc) Nyx and Dark Seer on the otherhand are versatile in any almost lane setup and there isn't much you can do to even stop a Spiked Carapaced Nyx running around and stunning heroes throwing spells at each other.
Of course Wisp changes the dynamic of the game, but I think it's nice to have a few heroes like that. It is beneficial for teams to have a good Wisp player and have a general gameplan for playing against Wisp because then it means they don't have to ban it in the first phase every single game, allowing their drafts to be more flexible. As long as there aren't too many heroes like this, stretching teams too thin, I think it's a good thing.
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EPT
