On February 19 2013 09:39 Wysp wrote: Pretty sure more people playing and watching DotA in the western scene than ever before. Regularly over 30k viewers english and 30k Russian. Year ago Tobi would break 10k if NaVi was playing, maybe.
I know people are playing I'm reffering to it's online presence on non tournament streams, just seems abysmal.
Pretty sure you wrong about this too. People are just elitist and only wanna watch pro streams. LoL viewers seem to give others a chance. But all the popular streams have way more viewers than ever.
Yeah, DotA 2 stream viewers are a lot more selective on who they watch.
Of the 10,000 DotA viewers right now, 7.5k are watching SL rebroadcasts, and 2k are watching Aui. Even EternalEnvy only has like 500 viewers.
LoL? More than a third are watching wingsofdeathx, who is basically a nobody in competitive play (he's not even technically playing for a competitive team, though on paper he's a sub for a second-tier NA team). He's an NA pubstar playing NA pub games. That kind of player would get no viewers on DotA.
DotA stream numbers are predominantly tournament streams, while by contrast, LoL has turned "pub games for entertainment" into a business model.
That's not completely true... Wingsofdeath isn't just a nobody, he's more like blitz who gets his fair share of viewers except he commentates like merlini I believe.
Honestly, a lot of streamers are just bad. Eternalenvy doesn't really have any good redeeming qualities about him and he only plays anime music. Admiralbulldog is another popular streamer coming on up. I still believe league pubs, albeit vastly different from the real thing, is still a lot closer than dota pubs is to the real thing because of the ladder aspect. If you're high rated, people want to see what you do besides just stack yourself with friends on skype. If people streamed themselves 5 stacking and play normal blind pick no one would watch that crap. Solo queue is something people can relate to for improvement and something you don't need 4 good players with communication around them to achieve.
Even Winter last night only had like 100 viewers. I don't know if it's a case of streamers being to boring or what.
I do think a huge issue is ranked games. No ranked games in Dota means pubs mean absolutely nothing so there is literally no point in doing them or watching them unless you genuinely enjoy it. Even as a person who watches streams on a regular basis pubs are boring to watch because who gives a shit, only 25% of the game is probably actually trying and then the game is over and nothing was gained/lost.
Game really needs something to fix this.
As someone trying to get viewers on a stream I don't even open Obs when I play Dota anymore because I can get more viewers playing hots beta or sub level 30 LoL normals. Pretty depressing since Dota is my game of choice.
On February 19 2013 10:39 Itsmedudeman wrote: That's not completely true... Wingsofdeath isn't just a nobody, he's more like blitz who gets his fair share of viewers except he commentates like merlini I believe.
Honestly, a lot of streamers are just bad. Eternalenvy doesn't really have any good redeeming qualities about him and he only plays anime music. Admiralbulldog is another popular streamer coming on up. I still believe league pubs, albeit vastly different from the real thing, is still a lot closer than dota pubs is to the real thing because of the ladder aspect. If you're high rated, people want to see what you do besides just stack yourself with friends on skype. If people streamed themselves 5 stacking and play normal blind pick no one would watch that crap. Solo queue is something people can relate to for improvement and something you don't need 4 good players with communication around them to achieve.
If you want to learn something from dota you're better off obsing in the game client anyways. They should be on the first few pages so it isn't hard to find either.
On February 19 2013 10:54 Esoterikk wrote: Even Winter last night only had like 100 viewers. I don't know if it's a case of streamers being to boring or what.
I do think a huge issue is ranked games. No ranked games in Dota means pubs mean absolutely nothing so there is literally no point in doing them or watching them unless you genuinely enjoy it. Even as a person who watches streams on a regular basis pubs are boring to watch because who gives a shit, only 25% of the game is probably actually trying and then the game is over and nothing was gained/lost.
Game really needs something to fix this.
As someone trying to get viewers on a stream I don't even open Obs when I play Dota anymore because I can get more viewers playing hots beta or sub level 30 LoL normals. Pretty depressing since Dota is my game of choice.
The thing is you NEED to be entertaining and interact with your viewers. Streaming is a form of entertainment for a large group of people.
Take for example Sing or Demon. Sure, plenty of people hate their attitude and guts, but they still pull massive viewers becuase they're funny, they don't simply 5 stack all day, and they do funny stuff in pubs that can make you laugh.
On February 19 2013 10:54 Esoterikk wrote: Even Winter last night only had like 100 viewers. I don't know if it's a case of streamers being to boring or what.
I do think a huge issue is ranked games. No ranked games in Dota means pubs mean absolutely nothing so there is literally no point in doing them or watching them unless you genuinely enjoy it. Even as a person who watches streams on a regular basis pubs are boring to watch because who gives a shit, only 25% of the game is probably actually trying and then the game is over and nothing was gained/lost.
Game really needs something to fix this.
As someone trying to get viewers on a stream I don't even open Obs when I play Dota anymore because I can get more viewers playing hots beta or sub level 30 LoL normals. Pretty depressing since Dota is my game of choice.
The thing is you NEED to be entertaining and interact with your viewers. Streaming is a form of entertainment for a large group of people.
Take for example Sing or Demon. Sure, plenty of people hate their attitude and guts, but they still pull massive viewers becuase they're funny, they don't simply 5 stack all day, and they do funny stuff in pubs that can make you laugh.
On February 19 2013 10:54 Esoterikk wrote: Even Winter last night only had like 100 viewers. I don't know if it's a case of streamers being to boring or what.
I do think a huge issue is ranked games. No ranked games in Dota means pubs mean absolutely nothing so there is literally no point in doing them or watching them unless you genuinely enjoy it. Even as a person who watches streams on a regular basis pubs are boring to watch because who gives a shit, only 25% of the game is probably actually trying and then the game is over and nothing was gained/lost.
Game really needs something to fix this.
As someone trying to get viewers on a stream I don't even open Obs when I play Dota anymore because I can get more viewers playing hots beta or sub level 30 LoL normals. Pretty depressing since Dota is my game of choice.
The thing is you NEED to be entertaining and interact with your viewers. Streaming is a form of entertainment for a large group of people.
Take for example Sing or Demon. Sure, plenty of people hate their attitude and guts, but they still pull massive viewers becuase they're funny, they don't simply 5 stack all day, and they do funny stuff in pubs that can make you laugh.
Sing easily gets 10,000 viewers as well as Dendi when streaming. I still remember one day when Dendi had 14,000 viewers as peak. Pretty damn awesome. I don't think "DotA2 seems dead" although we all know how dead DotA is in the US. This may change when the game gets fully released and Valve does proper marketing (see what they did with Portal 2 and L4D2. TV spots and shit which I don't expect them to do that for DotA2 but still).
You know what I think a big problem with stream viewers is? And it's not a problem (except pros needing the extra money from it). There are like 2-3 tourney matches a day at this point, if you just want to sit back and watch DotA, you have way better options than watching a streamer and enough hours to fill whatever free time you have to watch.
On February 19 2013 10:54 Esoterikk wrote: Even Winter last night only had like 100 viewers. I don't know if it's a case of streamers being to boring or what.
I do think a huge issue is ranked games. No ranked games in Dota means pubs mean absolutely nothing so there is literally no point in doing them or watching them unless you genuinely enjoy it. Even as a person who watches streams on a regular basis pubs are boring to watch because who gives a shit, only 25% of the game is probably actually trying and then the game is over and nothing was gained/lost.
Game really needs something to fix this.
As someone trying to get viewers on a stream I don't even open Obs when I play Dota anymore because I can get more viewers playing hots beta or sub level 30 LoL normals. Pretty depressing since Dota is my game of choice.
The thing is you NEED to be entertaining and interact with your viewers. Streaming is a form of entertainment for a large group of people.
Take for example Sing or Demon. Sure, plenty of people hate their attitude and guts, but they still pull massive viewers becuase they're funny, they don't simply 5 stack all day, and they do funny stuff in pubs that can make you laugh.
Sing easily gets 10,000 viewers as well as Dendi when streaming. I still remember one day when Dendi had 14,000 viewers as peak. Pretty damn awesome. I don't think "DotA2 seems dead" although we all know how dead DotA is in the US. This may change when the game gets fully released and Valve does proper marketing (see what they did with Portal 2 and L4D2. TV spots and shit which I don't expect them to do that for DotA2 but still).
I think that's the main problem that I am talking about, Sing/Dendi get MASSIVE numbers but when they aren't streaming it's a ghost town, alternatively while stefano/dyrus/idra stream and get huge numbers, when they stop the viewers seem to dissipate to other streams where as Dota it just drops off completely.
It's a strange phenomenon that I have only noticed happening to Dota that I haven't been able to figure out the cause for.
It's probably because people are playing the actual game when their player of interest isn't streaming. Starcraft has a lot more spectator appeal right now.
On February 19 2013 12:17 Kishin2 wrote: It's probably because people are playing the actual game when their player of interest isn't streaming.
Probably this, i notice a lot that my friends get sick of playing LoL after a few games, but will come back later in the day, often they watch streams in-between.
On February 19 2013 03:16 Andr3 wrote: This might be a bit random but whatever.
What's considered the most dominant team and/or the team with the most achievements ever in DotA history?
I guess the old VP was the most dominant? Because iirc they didn't lose for like 2 years at all.
And second thing, are ACE/G-league considered the most prestigious tournaments in DotA, akin to OSL/MSL?
EHOME has the most accomplishments, but LGD.sGty in early 2010 was the most dangerous team I've ever seen play. In the first four months of that year, they made beating EHOME and the other best Chinese teams look easier than EHOME made beating western teams.
Bit late but I'd disagree with this. VP was the most dominant ever, there's no contest in my mind. They're basically like Iloveoov in bw in that they weren't too early where records were easily shattered, nor were they too late to run into the chinese juggernaught where everyone who was a top tier team in China could take a game off each other. They won MYM Pride 3 years in a row. If you played dota back then, MYM Pride was basically The International. The ASUS that happened after the 2nd MYM Pride win they got 2nd place because LoH was on SP who won gold.
During no damage cd dagger era VP had a god aura around them. No matter who they played, no matter what region online or LAN it was completely expected to end quickly and completely break down the other team. Vigoss was overrated in that not that many people looked at who he was surrounded by until a bit later, but his stats were fucking insane. He's a top 3 finisher forever in DotA from that era alone. I don't remember the stat exactly but I remember reading that once he got his blink dagger he had around 70% chance to aggressively blink on you, kill you, and get out alive. This was ferrari level aggression and presence of mind in 2006-7.
Then you have NS whose probably only overshadowed by Puppey nowadays in terms of CIS legendary leaders. The team impact of having Jolie and NS together as drafter and support was huge and not matched by anyone until the Chinese. NS basically wrote the entire book on how to support for all dota players in all regions, where to ward, when to steal farm, when to push and why. Jolie was just like light years ahead of everyone on game theory and drafting/captaining.
Smile had such STUPIDLY good ganks. That guys game sense was as good as it is now back then. And he was ganking...not playing 5th position behind XBOCT.
Admiration and LoH were their ' insurance ' farmers/players but just as aggressive due to blink dagger. Vigoss and Admiration together put on relentless pressure that pretty much all farmers except Travka, FocusIRE, and Loda crumbled under.
The fact that LoH, NS, and Smile are still relevant in the conversation of best players of their region or the entire world shows you how hardcore this team was. I think LoH is the best all-round player in the world personally. Like if there were a global dream draft I'd take him first.
It's like when Boxer was using 1 dropship marine medic micro to take out lurkers and sunken colonies on Lost Temple. Nobody knew how to deal with it at all. Chinese skill definitely peaked higher individually and as a team via teams like current iG but during VPs era there was no challengers. MYM was their ' rival ' but the record was heavily lopsided for VP. They held this domination for close to 2 years straight. As for records, ya EHOME unquestionably.
reading the recent couple of pages makes it seem to me that people don't really give dota 2's matchmaking enough credit. can it be improved? sure it could but if you're decent to good at the game and even if you solo queue and get paired with idiots, your skills alone will eventually queue you against good, notable players.
where do you think players like admiral bulldog got his start? he came from a pub in which he met dendi, enough to give an impression of letting him stand in for an official match. now he's one of the most notable european players in the scene.
eternalenvy? we all know this guys story about dropping out of college to pursue his dream but where did he get his connection? he started by playing a shit ton of matchmaking and through it, went from having played with players [that i won't name] to loda+s4.
where do you think aui2000 got his start? he formed potm bottom (and eventaully dignitas) because he tryhard stacked his way to the top of the ladder. he's now sponsored by dignitas
EVEN if your personal matchmaking isn't visible at all to know where you are in the place of things, it definitely exists without a question and does it's job to queue you against players at your level. it may not be likely to get through the competitive scene through matchmaking but don't say the matchmaking system is bad when it allowed players who came from literally almost nothing to the place they're at now.
On February 19 2013 09:44 Soap wrote: Dota 2 ESPORTS outside of The International is extremely amateurish, as in Tobi having to censor himself on a player name in his own tournament, or everyone pausing for everything.
edit: with outside of tournaments you mean Dota 2 is about head to head against the brand new expansion to the premier RTS title in the world without its most popular streamers. Hardly a tragedy.
if you're implying that professionalism equates to more viewers, than both starcraft and dota ought to take notes from some of the "professional things" i see coming from the league of legend community to catch up in viewers!
EPT
