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On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun.
Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating.
And people at high Elo just play whatever the hell they want and nobody has a problem with it.
There's just that middle band of Elo where people are really douchey to each other but aren't actually good at the game where it's even an issue at all.
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How good of a MMR ladder can you make without Valve's assistance though?
I just don't see it, it would be pretty inaccurate. The only thing you have is winrates and the people you win versus, which requires a substantial sample size in the first place and secondly how do you rate each game in points.
If you put KDA into it, it gets so messy and favors people who play a couple of heroes and/or carry/mid roles.
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On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:10 r.Evo wrote:On January 20 2013 05:44 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 05:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Not sure what people are on, but while I was playing League I've never heard anyone shit talk anyone else for being a few ELO lower than them, especially considering you can go +- 100 usually. Maybe outside the game people will say shit like "lol are you like 800 ELO dude?" but then that's still blind unless they know you in game. Did you play after LoLKing started becoming commonplace to use? People would actively dodge games where you don't pick one of your top 3 highest winrate heroes. This. Not to mention the crap concept of "LOL LAST PICK GO SUPPORT" when the difference between first and last pick is less than ~100 elo unless you are at the very top of matchmaking. What I'd like to see: Privately available MMR rating. If you really want to measure your dick, post screenshots. Even IF Valve decides to put in a ranked mode at one point any and all information about how you did in previous games should be hidden from the public. Outside of game information should not have anything to do with the game you are about to play with random people.Some points that annoyed the crap out of me in League: -People were able to see what you have high winrates with / what you played recently. Easy to ban out stuff (mostly in 5n5 tournaments), easy to flame people if they don't pick what they are "best" with (ranked matchmaking). -People were able to see how you did in your last few games. There should be no basis for a comment like "LOL I KNOW WHY YOU LOST YOUR LAST FEW GAMES" - this isn't vital public information. -People were always, 100% sorted by elo from first till lastpick. While the argument "higher elo deserves earlier pick" makes sense to a certain extent it is also utter bullshit in most other cases. In general, I hope we don't see anything close to the League ranked mode, there have to be other possibilities to make this work. Sure, for your normal games most people won't bother checking your history or winrates, but as soon as your penis size is on the line playing with random strangers (= visible mmr), this stuff has to be hidden. PS: What I would still like to see however would be some kind of "notes function" similar to what you have on pokersites where you can make short comments about certain players that are only available to you. It's much harder to be like "Oh, I played with this guy before and he was xyz" in DotA 2 (because of Steam nicks) than it is in most other games. Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role.
Those features are completely fine for a normal matchmaking, just not for a ranked one with visible MMR.
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On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating.
So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that.
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On January 20 2013 08:27 Andr3 wrote:
How good of a MMR ladder can you make without Valve's assistance though?
I just don't see it, it would be pretty inaccurate. The only thing you have is winrates and the people you win versus, which requires a substantial sample size in the first place and secondly how do you rate each game in points.
If you put KDA into it, it gets so messy and favors people who play a couple of heroes and/or carry/mid roles.
You won't need to do anything else - anyone who has played a significant number of public matchmaking games already has a Dotabuff Rating.
We've graphed and processed every public matchmaking match since the beginning of Dota 2 beta, so the results from all of your matches are considered and properly weighed against the skill of your opponents at the time the match occured.
(From one of the dotabuff people's comments on reddit).
If nothing else, I'm pretty sure the rating will be fairly accurate.
Also I've never in my life had someone go onto dotabuff and make fun of my win% or anything of the sort in-game. I have been made fun of for having 2100+ hours played, but whatever. Griefing happens.
Currently it's too much effort to look up every bit of info about even one person while the game picks let alone all 10. I would prefer it stay that way. (why the other 5? - in hon's CM mode I would generally just look people up, see if they were 40% with a hero or something and ban whatever their most played heroes were, because that stuff was just a right click on their name away).
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On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that.
No? You just play whatever's needed.
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On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed.
But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game?
Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game.
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Checking % for winrates is a bit silly though. You need to play at least like 100 games with a certain hero for % to be somewhat accurate.
DotA is too inconsistent, I know people who have 70% with heroes at like 50-60 games yet they don't play amazing with them. same for lower win percentages.
I can attest, I have like ~25 games with WR and like 25% winrate..and I'm pretty sure my windrunner isn't that bad.(i'm also 1: 9 with BS, 0: 9 with BH..) On the other hand I have 70% with kotl/lina with around 40 games played and that win percentage isn't accurate as well. You can't have that much of an impact on a game with a supports.
I have a friend whose pudge is beyond insane(for our skill bracket) and he only has 49%(200 games) winrate with him. If you have 100+ games with a certain hero and you have either less or more than 50% take that into account, but nothing else. Even at 100 games the sample size is quite small, and there's bunch of factors that have an impact equaling your performance.
tldr: dota is random, you can have 50% winrate overall and still be in top live matches because all that matters is that you win the games you're supposed to and not lose those you're favored against(just like in SC2)
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Had a random thought that on paper seems like it'd be a pretty sick idea for them to add for people that want to play more competitively, play a specific role, meet others, etc.
I'd like to see some sort of mode where you can select a role position 1-5, maybe allowing everyone to pick up to 2 slots they'd like to play. Then based off that there's some sort of match making to put them all together on a team. Theoretically it could help do away with the 5 carry pub games and just complete shit shows of that nature. Only problem I can see is how it would narrow heroes down to a specific pool for a role since there's so much flexibility for many heroes. But think it'd be a nice way for people who are serious or want to get serious to easily find similar minded people.
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As far as I know they are going to be public for the top players. The poll's purpose is to decide whether it should be public for the rest or not. It's a bit similar to SC2.
I think public for everyone is a good thing.
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I actually like the occasional 5carry team, it just feels right for dota(all them old garena games). Not to mention you can build some semicarries/carries as support in pubs and it works fine(then again you can build anything in pubs and make it work). Kunkka's great at it :2
In LoL if you didn't have a 1/1/2 + jungler at any ELO you got flamed at. Would hate to see the same happen to dota.
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On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game.
No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually.
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On January 20 2013 09:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game. No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually.
So basically if you're first pick you're entitled to be a dick to everyone just because that is how it turned out? That is exactly the reason all these people don't want a visible system.
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On January 20 2013 10:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:On January 20 2013 07:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Except dotabuff already has every feature you mentioned just no visible rating. And when you play seriously and need to pick supports you can't have people just picking whatever they want. If you wanna just random and screw around you can go play normals which are still ranked, just hidden. The difference in ELO and the difference between first pick and last pick is just a formality for pick order. Hardly matters in dota where I'd say the players aren't one trick ponies usually and can play any role. The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game. No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually. So basically if you're first pick you're entitled to be a dick to everyone just because that is how it turned out? That is exactly the reason all these people don't want a visible system.
Wait, how are they being a dick by picking what they want as opposed to you? They aren't picking for you. They just get to first pick this particular game. I'd argue the guy who can't comprehend that they just need to accept a different role cause they don't have first pick is the one being a dick. Statistically everyone will get to first pick 1/5th of their games except the people at the very bottom and very top.
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They're not being a dick... I don't understand why you're so defensive about "having fun". What people who want a visible MMR want is a system where if you are legitimately better than the rest of your team you get the opportunity to first pick a hero that will let you show that and impact the game. I understand you'd feel shafted if you wanted to just relax and play mid that game but I'm sure that a non-mmr mode would be implemented for that express purpose just like it has been in every other dota-like title that has a competitive mmr mode (i.e. Hon, Lol). Once you got to a certain mmr bracket in Hon it was almost never the case where the last player deserved mid over the players above him and if he actually did then looking at his winrates/kdr with certain mid heroes could convince the rest of the team to let him have it. Otherwise get off your high horse and play support for a game, it won't kill you.
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On January 20 2013 10:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 10:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 09:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:On January 20 2013 08:03 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
The number of people who refuse to play certain roles/insta-pick certain roles would make you think otherwise. And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well. People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game. No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually. So basically if you're first pick you're entitled to be a dick to everyone just because that is how it turned out? That is exactly the reason all these people don't want a visible system. Wait, how are they being a dick by picking what they want as opposed to you? They aren't picking for you. They just get to first pick this particular game. I'd argue the guy who can't comprehend that they just need to accept a different role cause they don't have first pick is the one being a dick. Statistically everyone will get to first pick 1/5th of their games except the people at the very bottom and very top.
The highest win rate mid guy isn't guaranteed to be first pick yet you consider him more entitled to play middle. Does he now cede middle to me if I get to pick before him?
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On January 20 2013 09:45 Andr3 wrote:
I actually like the occasional 5carry team, it just feels right for dota(all them old garena games). Not to mention you can build some semicarries/carries as support in pubs and it works fine(then again you can build anything in pubs and make it work). Kunkka's great at it :2
In LoL if you didn't have a 1/1/2 + jungler at any ELO you got flamed at. Would hate to see the same happen to dota.
Support specre my favorite way to play
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On January 20 2013 10:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 10:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 10:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 09:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:14 superstartran wrote:
[quote]
And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well.
People who don't want a rating system to be visible are just afraid for the most part. If you're good enough at the game, rating system doesn't matter. You're going to win, and you're going to be highly rated. That's all there is to it. Ratings/Stats only determine who should get what positions based on public level play. If someone has a high Kill/Assist Death Ratio, high GPM, and overall high win percentage in the highest MMR bracket, and you try to deny him that, you're only doing yourself a disservice. Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game. No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually. So basically if you're first pick you're entitled to be a dick to everyone just because that is how it turned out? That is exactly the reason all these people don't want a visible system. Wait, how are they being a dick by picking what they want as opposed to you? They aren't picking for you. They just get to first pick this particular game. I'd argue the guy who can't comprehend that they just need to accept a different role cause they don't have first pick is the one being a dick. Statistically everyone will get to first pick 1/5th of their games except the people at the very bottom and very top. The highest win rate mid guy isn't guaranteed to be first pick yet you consider him more entitled to play middle. Does he now cede middle to me if I get to pick before him?
That's a dumb argument. The way it works is just arbitrary. Just cause you have a higher winrate also doesn't mean you're better. If I played only mid for my low level games then I'd have a high winrate. The way this is set up is that you get to choose what you want at least 1/5th of the time, doesn't matter if it's mid, support, or carry. How the hell would you set it up so that the highest winrate guy has first pick for mid? Then you're just literally forcing people to only play 1 role.
I don't know why you guys are trying to make an argument such that you expect to be better than your team. Honestly reminds me of the "mid or feed" mentality or "ELO hell" bullshit. The system also matches you with people closer to your amount of wins (verified some amount of posts ago) so if you're climbing fast you'll be with other people climbing fast.
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On January 20 2013 10:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 10:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 10:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 10:03 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 09:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 09:04 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:48 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 20 2013 08:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:On January 20 2013 08:18 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
[quote]
Maybe if my sole purpose in life is to inflate my ego by getting dota stats. I play this game to have fun; not to be bossed around by people who think they're better than me (even if they are it doesn't matter). I don't give a shit if you have 100% winrate on first page as mid. If I'm feeling like playing middle that game then why are you any more entitled to it than me? I'm doing myself a disservice because I want to have fun rather than have a 100% winrate? No I'm playing a game to have fun. Then go play normals? Lots of casual players (actually just a huge majority of players) just play non rated games in league and don't give a shit about rating. So if I play ranked I must have one role I play forever and if I want to deviate from that I must go play casual/normal mode? I like a bit more variety than that. No? You just play whatever's needed. But who gets to decide what we need? We obviously need a mid hero so why can't I play that...because somebody else is more entitled to the position since they have a higher winrate? If you believe that the highest win rate person gets a position then they're always going to be playing that position. Why would I let you play non-middle when you have 100% winrate as middle? I'm not entitled to force you into a position so that I can win the game, but you can force me out of a position so you can win the game? Still think we need try hard mode for people like you. They can call it most wins mode where everybody is forced to play their highest win rate hero so that everyone has the best chance of winning the game. No, because they pick before you. Period. Whatever system that may be and it happens to be rating in this case, you just pick after him. It's the same thing in all pick pubs. If there's like 3 carries on your team already picked you don't pick another carry. And if people want to argue that they have a higher winrate it doesn't matter. If you can't carry as support in a low level game by roaming/etc. you suck. Sure, sometimes your carry will suck but so will theirs. And this only happens until you get to your true rating which will happen eventually. So basically if you're first pick you're entitled to be a dick to everyone just because that is how it turned out? That is exactly the reason all these people don't want a visible system. Wait, how are they being a dick by picking what they want as opposed to you? They aren't picking for you. They just get to first pick this particular game. I'd argue the guy who can't comprehend that they just need to accept a different role cause they don't have first pick is the one being a dick. Statistically everyone will get to first pick 1/5th of their games except the people at the very bottom and very top. The highest win rate mid guy isn't guaranteed to be first pick yet you consider him more entitled to play middle. Does he now cede middle to me if I get to pick before him? That's a dumb argument. The way it works is just arbitrary. Just cause you have a higher winrate also doesn't mean you're better. If I played only mid for my low level games then I'd have a high winrate. The way this is set up is that you get to choose what you want at least 1/5th of the time, doesn't matter if it's mid, support, or carry. How the hell would you set it up so that the highest winrate guy has first pick for mid? Then you're just literally forcing people to only play 1 role.
Then we're in agreement.
I was refuting this
And you can argue with them that they should play a different hero based on your ratings/stats combination. If I'm the same rating as you, and I hold a significantly higher win percentage than you over a period of games, I'm better, no question about it. As such, I should be the one who gets priority on what position I want to play, especially if I want to play a high impact position so I can make the most impact. When you're playing to win pubs, you have to play high impact heroes/positions. It's not a question at all; that's why even when good players play support, they play a team fight oriented hero like Sand King, Earthshaker, Leshrac, Lina, Tide, Lion, Rhasta etc. that can also gank and lane well.
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EPT
