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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2012 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Yeah, I think the fundamental disconnect here is that every single person who learned on QWER or has used QWER for a decent amount of time could easily do flamewheel's challenge barring a mistake or 2 on heroes they don't play. However, people who use different/legacy keys think about the abilities fundamentally differently and the challenge seems kinda impossible. Its a very interesting disconnect that isn't obvious because we use the abilities the same way, it has no bearing on skill, understanding or anything else. Just the way you learned it. Its actually fascinating how different the ideologies are for no reason other than how we learned the game.
Please don't bring league into this, it is completely irrelevant. I don't think of earth spike as "a Q" but rather as "Lion's Q". Classifying it as a Q is merely shorthand, not a description of the spell.
@kupon I understood exactly what you meant, although I know you pulled it out of your ass and none of it was true.
EDIT: its true, SF is funny, but thats fine. You still level him "w,q,q,w,q,w,q,w" aka one in soulsteal, max raze then soulsteal, ult at 9 and 11. The razes are cast with QWE so you get to call them Q, W and E and it is very easy to comprehend for anybody who has played him with QWER. Really it is. I get that it isn't intuitive. no, bristleback is literally one of the most broken heroes once people learn to pick it up, what is untrue about my statement, unless u thought that Q was Quills, which it isn't
What's untrue is that you said E got buffed. Using QWER, E would be Bristleback, and Bristleback didn't get buffed. 
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
People have got to accept that there will always be two schools of Dota players: Legacy key players and QWER players. Using 'Q W E R' will confuse one of those groups. Calling spells by their full name will be understood by both groups and does not require much more effort.
It's pretty much common courtesy at this point.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Just call it first/second/third skill and ultimate, if you can't be bothered to remember the name, that won't confuse anyone.
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On October 31 2012 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Yeah, I think the fundamental disconnect here is that every single person who learned on QWER or has used QWER for a decent amount of time could easily do flamewheel's challenge barring a mistake or 2 on heroes they don't play. However, people who use different/legacy keys think about the abilities fundamentally differently and the challenge seems kinda impossible. Its a very interesting disconnect that isn't obvious because we use the abilities the same way, it has no bearing on skill, understanding or anything else. Just the way you learned it. Its actually fascinating how different the ideologies are for no reason other than how we learned the game.
Please don't bring league into this, it is completely irrelevant. I don't think of earth spike as "a Q" but rather as "Lion's Q". Classifying it as a Q is merely shorthand, not a description of the spell.
@kupon I understood exactly what you meant, although I know you pulled it out of your ass and none of it was true.
EDIT: its true, SF is funny, but thats fine. You still level him "w,q,q,w,q,w,q,w" aka one in soulsteal, max raze then soulsteal, ult at 9 and 11. The razes are cast with QWE so you get to call them Q, W and E and it is very easy to comprehend for anybody who has played him with QWER. Really it is. I get that it isn't intuitive. no, bristleback is literally one of the most broken heroes once people learn to pick it up, what is untrue about my statement, unless u thought that Q was Quills, which it isn't
If I haven't played Bristleback, I don't even know one of his skill is called Quills, let alone the legacy key.
This is the same argument between legacy key and grid key in SC2. As one of the person who does 2 diferent things in 2 games (QWER grid in dota/hon, legacy key in SC2), I find it fascinating how our mind work. I can pick up any heroes and learn the spell order immediately, while I can't even remember where the Factory is on the grid in SC2. On the other hand, using legacy key feel "right" (because it associates with the name of units so it can be easy to pick up), but in games that have such vast different skill names (4 on each heroes, 100+ heroes) you can't really remember names of all the spells.
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On October 31 2012 08:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 31 2012 07:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Yeah, I think the fundamental disconnect here is that every single person who learned on QWER or has used QWER for a decent amount of time could easily do flamewheel's challenge barring a mistake or 2 on heroes they don't play. However, people who use different/legacy keys think about the abilities fundamentally differently and the challenge seems kinda impossible. Its a very interesting disconnect that isn't obvious because we use the abilities the same way, it has no bearing on skill, understanding or anything else. Just the way you learned it. Its actually fascinating how different the ideologies are for no reason other than how we learned the game.
Please don't bring league into this, it is completely irrelevant. I don't think of earth spike as "a Q" but rather as "Lion's Q". Classifying it as a Q is merely shorthand, not a description of the spell.
@kupon I understood exactly what you meant, although I know you pulled it out of your ass and none of it was true.
EDIT: its true, SF is funny, but thats fine. You still level him "w,q,q,w,q,w,q,w" aka one in soulsteal, max raze then soulsteal, ult at 9 and 11. The razes are cast with QWE so you get to call them Q, W and E and it is very easy to comprehend for anybody who has played him with QWER. Really it is. I get that it isn't intuitive. no, bristleback is literally one of the most broken heroes once people learn to pick it up, what is untrue about my statement, unless u thought that Q was Quills, which it isn't What's untrue is that you said E got buffed. Using QWER, E would be Bristleback, and Bristleback didn't get buffed.
bristleback got a huge buff
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On October 31 2012 08:01 Sn0_Man wrote:
Bristleback isn't broken, I know that W is his quills, and I fail to see how his Q is "bullshit as always". You just came up with it to try and make it sound opaque/retarded, and it wasn't. I will admit that I haven't kept up with his patch history since he is Dota 1 only right now, so I can't comment on the status of his E recieving a buff (oh yeah it procs ON the damage threshold not the instance after it, I do remember now). Not sure what is silly about his R but sure.
It really is intuitive to people who learned it that way.
It's intuitive even if you didn't learn that way. I wasn't exposed to QWER until I tried hon for about a month and have had no troubles making the switch for dota2.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2012 08:05 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:03 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2012 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 31 2012 07:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Yeah, I think the fundamental disconnect here is that every single person who learned on QWER or has used QWER for a decent amount of time could easily do flamewheel's challenge barring a mistake or 2 on heroes they don't play. However, people who use different/legacy keys think about the abilities fundamentally differently and the challenge seems kinda impossible. Its a very interesting disconnect that isn't obvious because we use the abilities the same way, it has no bearing on skill, understanding or anything else. Just the way you learned it. Its actually fascinating how different the ideologies are for no reason other than how we learned the game.
Please don't bring league into this, it is completely irrelevant. I don't think of earth spike as "a Q" but rather as "Lion's Q". Classifying it as a Q is merely shorthand, not a description of the spell.
@kupon I understood exactly what you meant, although I know you pulled it out of your ass and none of it was true.
EDIT: its true, SF is funny, but thats fine. You still level him "w,q,q,w,q,w,q,w" aka one in soulsteal, max raze then soulsteal, ult at 9 and 11. The razes are cast with QWE so you get to call them Q, W and E and it is very easy to comprehend for anybody who has played him with QWER. Really it is. I get that it isn't intuitive. no, bristleback is literally one of the most broken heroes once people learn to pick it up, what is untrue about my statement, unless u thought that Q was Quills, which it isn't What's untrue is that you said E got buffed. Using QWER, E would be Bristleback, and Bristleback didn't get buffed. bristleback got a huge buff
Oops, you're right. I forgot to read the spoiler, and assumed it was just a Quill Spray change.
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3030 Posts
You silly kids. Me and Kupon been going on about BB being OP for a while now.
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raze raze raze ult ez
d is for damage
f is -armor
edit: i wish bristleback's q scaled linearly
like -1/1.5/2/2.5 armor
i hate skills that don't skill linearly
like gondar's shuriken who even thought that was a good idea
edit2: or at least scale kinda-linearly
like dk's fire breath gets +80 - 10*level per level
that makes sense
but zeuz chain wtf 5/7/9/15
85/100/115/145
does that even make sense?
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Bristle was even worse in HoN because of the HoN items. Nero's rod or whatever it's called that gave you a shield after every spell you cast made your average midskill pub a nightmare. I used to pick him a lot and go a real tanky build with nero's, hood, etc. You basically get a shield everytime you quill or snot, pretty stupid.
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Nobody is saying that its not uninitutive for you, but rather that its extremely unintuitive to both long time players who haven't switched from legacy keys as well as new players.
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane"
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2012 08:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane"
I actually did this too in LoL. >.> I would refer to items by cost, and then stop and realize nobody's going to understand wtf I'm talking about.
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How could it be unintuitive to new players? They would learn the system as is and not think twice about it. I've never heard a newb friend complain about keysetups. Or be confused as to why 'stormbolt' isn't "S" or something (I know it's T in dota1 just an example of how someone would rationalize spell names and keys). They learn it as Q and that's the spell in that slot. They learn the skills by slots 1 2 3 4, not by trying to rationalize the key with a letter. I've played dota2 with at least 10 brand new dota players, never played the game in their lives and never had any of them complain or had confusion over the QWER system. They've never even brought it up if anything it makes it easier to explain, 'level your Q' (anecdotes yay).
Old players i can see having a problem but I made the switch pretty easy and I know other dota 1 professionals have as well like FeaR.
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On October 31 2012 08:21 crms wrote:
How could it be unintuitive to new players? They would learn the system as is and not think twice about it. I've never heard a newb friend complain about keysetups. Or be confused as to why 'stormbolt' isn't "S" or something. They learn it as Q and that's the spell in that slot. They learn the skills by slots 1 2 3 4, not by trying to rationalize the key with a letter.
Old players i can see having a problem but I made the switch pretty easy and I know other dota 1 professionals have as well like FeaR.
because you're playing against a hero u've never seen, and somebody tells you "look out for that guy's Q"
what do u think?
You call skills by descriptions in forums out of courtesy, not because "its convient for you", why do people call workers workers in start craft when u can just be like "OMG that toss is down 25 e's" (note how this also has the added advantage of instantly allow you to figure out if its BW or sc2)
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How are we still talking about this
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On October 31 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane" I actually did this too in LoL. >.> I would refer to items by cost, and then stop and realize nobody's going to understand wtf I'm talking about.
On October 31 2012 08:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
Nobody is saying that its not uninitutive for you, but rather that its extremely unintuitive to both long time players who haven't switched from legacy keys as well as new players.
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane"
That is a whole different level of insanity. You guys are crazy.
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On October 31 2012 08:22 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:21 crms wrote:
How could it be unintuitive to new players? They would learn the system as is and not think twice about it. I've never heard a newb friend complain about keysetups. Or be confused as to why 'stormbolt' isn't "S" or something. They learn it as Q and that's the spell in that slot. They learn the skills by slots 1 2 3 4, not by trying to rationalize the key with a letter.
Old players i can see having a problem but I made the switch pretty easy and I know other dota 1 professionals have as well like FeaR. because you're playing against a hero u've never seen, and somebody tells you "look out for that guy's Q" what do u think?
"Look out for that guys's Vicious Nasal Goo" doesn't help either.
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On October 31 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:22 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 31 2012 08:21 crms wrote:
How could it be unintuitive to new players? They would learn the system as is and not think twice about it. I've never heard a newb friend complain about keysetups. Or be confused as to why 'stormbolt' isn't "S" or something. They learn it as Q and that's the spell in that slot. They learn the skills by slots 1 2 3 4, not by trying to rationalize the key with a letter.
Old players i can see having a problem but I made the switch pretty easy and I know other dota 1 professionals have as well like FeaR. because you're playing against a hero u've never seen, and somebody tells you "look out for that guy's Q" what do u think? "Look out for that guys's Vicious Nasal Goo" doesn't help either.
lookout for his slow
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On October 31 2012 08:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:20 TheYango wrote:On October 31 2012 08:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane" I actually did this too in LoL. >.> I would refer to items by cost, and then stop and realize nobody's going to understand wtf I'm talking about. Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:18 Kupon3ss wrote:
Nobody is saying that its not uninitutive for you, but rather that its extremely unintuitive to both long time players who haven't switched from legacy keys as well as new players.
for example, in LoL I find it intuitive personally to refer to and think of items as their gold costs, but u dont see me going "Hey I bought a 1400 because I was trolling as an ADC in lane" That is a whole different level of insanity. You guys are crazy.
you have to start realizing thats how insane QWER is for some people
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 08:22 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 31 2012 08:21 crms wrote:
How could it be unintuitive to new players? They would learn the system as is and not think twice about it. I've never heard a newb friend complain about keysetups. Or be confused as to why 'stormbolt' isn't "S" or something. They learn it as Q and that's the spell in that slot. They learn the skills by slots 1 2 3 4, not by trying to rationalize the key with a letter.
Old players i can see having a problem but I made the switch pretty easy and I know other dota 1 professionals have as well like FeaR. because you're playing against a hero u've never seen, and somebody tells you "look out for that guy's Q" what do u think? "Look out for that guys's Vicious Nasal Goo" doesn't help either.
Well you'd figure out pretty quickly which skill "Viscous Nasal Goo" is when he casts it once, so you'd know to watch out for it.
You still don't know which skill "Q" is regardless until you play the hero/look him up.
On October 31 2012 08:25 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
That is a whole different level of insanity. You guys are crazy.
It's actually not when you realize that it's fairly commonplace for Chinese to refer to DotA items by cost too.
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EPT
