EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 1053
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Benjef
United Kingdom6921 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
meh trying to explain these kind of situations is impossible through forums since people will always theory craft everything away that isn't the norm...  yeah i can explain to you why lone druid offlane is bad, and why naga siren is a terrible hero through theory craft, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work or is true, nor does it mean that there are never drafts that work well with it. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:59 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm not using my experiences at my MMR (which is currently high and the occasionally very high, so few games played T_T), as justification, i'm playing the game and noting the opportunities with perfect play what could be done. There is a difference. if you have the knowledge of the game and the game sense you can figure things out no matter the MMR, you just can't do hard math about it like: "you should be able to get 40 last hits by X with whatever" because of course i can outplay my laning opponents at lower MMRs. I'm not saying "hey i played a pub and did well with shadow blade on lone druid, everyone should do it" i'm saying " i was playing with spirit breaker in the offlane solo role, and noticed openings that bara can take advantage of given 1v2 situations, and i've noticed my ability to get out of initiations pretty reliably given correct circumstances, i feel there is potential here" see the difference? meh trying to explain these kind of situations is impossible through forums since people will always theory craft everything away that isn't the norm... yeah i can explain to you why lone druid offlane is bad, and why naga siren is a terrible hero through theory craft, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work or is true, nor does it mean that there are never drafts that work well with it.Feel free to post a replay of you getting exp as spirit breaker in very high bracket. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Teams knowing this shouldn't make those gank opportunities for you to be relevant. They can just group push/teamfight early and Bara can't do anything about that because of how weak his pre-BKB teamfight presence is and how he has no counterpush. You can probably draft a comp that can make it work, but having to draft around your off-laner not bringing any essentials to the table (AoE, disables, pushing power) is really awkward given that all the common off-laners are expected to be carrying some of these. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:00 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Feel free to post a replay of you getting exp as spirit breaker in very high bracket. Will do once i have one. I get very high bracket 10% of games, and i don't play exclusively bara offlane so it's hard to get the two things to line up. lol | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On September 19 2012 07:59 PrinceXizor wrote: I'm not using my experiences at my MMR (which is currently high and the occasionally very high, so few games played T_T), as justification, i'm playing the game and noting the opportunities with perfect play what could be done. There is a difference. if you have the knowledge of the game and the game sense you can figure things out no matter the MMR, you just can't do hard math about it like: "you should be able to get 40 last hits by X with whatever" because of course i can outplay my laning opponents at lower MMRs. I'm not saying "hey i played a pub and did well with shadow blade on lone druid, everyone should do it" i'm saying " i was playing with spirit breaker in the offlane solo role, and noticed openings that bara can take advantage of given 1v2 situations, and i've noticed my ability to get out of initiations pretty reliably given correct circumstances, i feel there is potential here" see the difference? meh trying to explain these kind of situations is impossible through forums since people will always theory craft everything away that isn't the norm... yeah i can explain to you why lone druid offlane is bad, and why naga siren is a terrible hero through theory craft, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work or is true, nor does it mean that there are never drafts that work well with it."I'm not using my experiences at my MMR" "i was playing with spirit breaker in the offlane solo role, and noticed openings that bara can take advantage of given 1v2 situations" Those are your experiences at your MMR. You are talking about 1v2, not 1v3. And in a pub, not a real match. Basically any hero can 1v2 in a pub. And Bara needs items, if you are underleved and underfarmed you wont accomplish anything besides dieing after initiating. People will see the charge coming and TPs from support will mean you just get counterganked. There are just better initiators, Bara doesn't work with no farm. On September 19 2012 08:03 PrinceXizor wrote: Will do once i have one. I get very high bracket 10% of games, and i don't play exclusively bara offlane so it's hard to get the two things to line up. lol Just look back into your old Bara games and find the match ID, should be easier unless you have a shitload of Barathum games. Can't you filter by Hero and Bracket? | ||
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ImpromptuGangbang
Argentina102 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:01 TheYango wrote: I can see where PrinceXizor is coming from with the Tide off-lane comparison (Tide has less base armor and less HP at level 1, and Bara has a movement speed passive). At the same time, the problem is that Bara doesn't really have any sort of presence beyond ganking until he's got items. His teamfight presence is weak unless he's fed. His pushing is weak. His counterpushing is nonexistent. Teams knowing this shouldn't make those gank opportunities for you to be relevant. They can just group push/teamfight early and Bara can't do anything about that because of how weak his pre-BKB teamfight presence is and how he has no counterpush. You can probably draft a comp that can make it work, but having to draft around your off-laner not bringing any essentials to the table (AoE, disables, pushing power) is really awkward given that all the common off-laners are expected to be carrying some of these. The thought behind it are both baras very high base stats, and the movespeed +charge allowing you safety like kracken shell does. the thought of his items (drum + phase) over like BKB MOM builds is that the cheap parts let him constantly be working toward his goals and his massive buff to highly aggressive squads, in different ways to a bounty hunter but similar in role(ish) bounty hunter provides group gank movespeed +bonus gold at the cost of only having a slow Bara does a similar amount of damage and has a stronger initiate, stronger movespeed buff, and more disables in the ganks, at the cost of bonus gold. You don't have to draft around him since he's an obvious 5th slot draft choice, no one is going to ban/pick him up until last couple picks if they pick him up at all (more likely) so you get to use your 3rd draft slot on more powerful support picks instead. He provides additional value in that manner. you can get rhasta, enchantress and a rubick in the first three picks without having to worry about picking up a decent offlaner in first three (like other draft choices provide) and allowing you to ban out the powerful offlanes in the 2nd draft phase to pick up carry as 4th slot and then finally bara as last pick give you a pretty good advantage in the draft, as most Offlaners would be taken out or picked by then. Skipping on the typical I'm a carry items also let's you get aga scepter on him as the game progresses past the early-mid stage providing him with a decent team fight presence. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
I'm not basing this off pure theorycrafting, I actually play offlane at a decently high level in EU dota and I can't see a situation where a SB will ever be able to get levels another hero who could arguably do more could get. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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Benjef
United Kingdom6921 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:19 Numy wrote: You can't really compare him to a BH or a tide because both those heroes don't need anything aside from levels to be effective. The strength of a BH offlane is that it requires a commitment from the enemy to shut down in terms of sentries and without farm he can still do something for the team while getting that farm in the form of track(vision/ms/gold) and a ranged nuke. The slow/invis are both useful but not always relevant. A tide only needs 6 in order to be useful for his team and needs no farm. A SB has none of those characteristics. He's naturally tanky but he has to use his tankiness to achieve anything while as the prior heroes don't actually need to be tanky to achieve anything on the map. I'm not basing this off pure theorycrafting, I actually play offlane at a decently high level in EU dota and I can't see a situation where a SB will ever be able to get levels another hero who could arguably do more could get. Compare his laning to tide and his team contribution to BH, BH provides help in the form of vision/ms/gold (track) and a ranged damage source Bara provides help in the form of vision (charge cross map)/ms(empowered haste)/stuns (bash/charge/ulti) and a ranged damage source (ulti) Tide has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in and get a few last hits as he levels Bara has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in a get a few last hits as he levels. not comparable? side note: did steam go down for anyone else? tide/BH both are banned/picked up relatively early as well, bara provides a drafting advantage as well. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:22 Benjef wrote: Ya know, I'm really tempted just to insta lock bara and call solo hard just to see what happens.... (high/very high bracket). You'll sit there and do nothing for 30 mins. If not, you're playing at not high tier and more likely against dumpsters. | ||
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Mondieu
Romania803 Posts
PS STEAM IS OFFLINE >< | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:24 PrinceXizor wrote: Compare his laning to tide and his team contribution to BH, BH provides help in the form of vision/ms/gold (track) and a ranged damage source Bara provides help in the form of vision (charge cross map)/ms(empowered haste)/stuns (bash/charge/ulti) and a ranged damage source (ulti) Tide has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in and get a few last hits as he levels Bara has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in a get a few last hits as he levels. not comparable? side note: did steam go down for anyone else? tide/BH both are banned/picked up relatively early as well, bara provides a drafting advantage as well. My steam isn't working either. The key difference is that when they hit 6 Tide has an AoE stun and SB does not. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:24 PrinceXizor wrote: Compare his laning to tide and his team contribution to BH, BH provides help in the form of vision/ms/gold (track) and a ranged damage source Bara provides help in the form of vision (charge cross map)/ms(empowered haste)/stuns (bash/charge/ulti) and a ranged damage source (ulti) Tide has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in and get a few last hits as he levels Bara has to play cowardly and settle for xp early on while being able to wade in a get a few last hits as he levels. not comparable? side note: did steam go down for anyone else? tide/BH both are banned/picked up relatively early as well, bara provides a drafting advantage as well. Yes but what can Bara do with no experience and farm compared to a tide? You are comparing one hero that can contribute massively to any teamfight to another that requires farm and levels to achieve anything really. I mean look at that. A "ranged damage source" is just not true. That requires you to be into the fight once again which realistically will only happen if you already won the fight since a no farm SB won't be able to actually get into the fray. I think you just have this thing in your head and you are determined to make it work regardless of what people say. BH can roam with the aid of invis and track and still contribute without actually fighting. He can dart in and out of engagements getting pickoffs while Bara relies on being in the face of the enemy to do anything. You are basically saying you can play a Bara the same way as you play a BH in the offlane when realistically a bara played that way provides almost no benefit for the team outside of a small ms buff. A BH is flexible in the offlane because he is so slippy and doesn't actually have to commit to small skirmishes. | ||
blahz0r
3030 Posts
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Benjef
United Kingdom6921 Posts
On September 19 2012 08:27 Mondieu wrote: How do yyou know which bracket you are in ? PS STEAM IS OFFLINE >< Watch tab, filters and then put ya name in and filter by skill level. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Also worth noting that BH is situational enough as is in a draft. Even when YYF is arguably the best BH player in the world, iG picks up BH VERY situationally because you have to have a comp that can make up for the fact that you have an off laner with no disables/AoE/pushing ability. In a teamfighting/ganking comp such a pick can be strong, but it's not strong enough to be worth sacrificing the essentials for. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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