On January 01 2013 19:50 -NegativeZero- wrote: 3rds on both maps are much closer when expanding clockwise - if you spawn counterclockwise you'll have a significantly harder time expanding away from your opponent (aka positional imbalance).
No, they actually aren't - it's true that the clockwise 3rds on FS are slightly closer and easier to defend, but at least the ground distances to the 3rds in both directions are reasonably close, and it is theoretically feasible to expand in either direction. But on both of your maps, the difference in distances is greatly exaggerated (ramps to the clockwise 3rds are practically right next to the nats) to the point where, in certain matchups, it basically is only feasible to expand clockwise. Not saying this will break the maps - that is unlikely - but it has the potential to cause some imbalances.
Edit: this mostly applies to the first map, but I think it is still an issue with the second map to a lesser degree.
My point was that the distances don't matter.
point this:
please STOP DERAILING MY THREAD.
This thread has a point. It's called test my map and see how it actually works. It's not called "Bash the map".
PLEASE DO NOT DERAIL THE THREAD.
I'll explain it again for you. You can ALWAYS expand clockwise. Who cares.
I'll explain it a fifteenth time for you sir. YOU CAN A L W A Y S expand clockwise on this map.
Because if you can A L W A Y S expand clockwise on FS then you can A L W A Y S expand clockwise on this. So how is it imbalanced?
Now I will say it for a fourth time
STOP DERAILING MY THREAD.
If you post one more time about this argument I'm going to go tell a mod.
You are derailing a thread where the point is testing. Not finding flaws that aren't even flaws.
You can always expand clockwise. So the difference in distance doesn't matter. Especially since the distance to your third in FS is blocked off, which is no different than it being shorter in my map.
If you do it again im going to go tell a mod to ban you from my thread.
Mods would surely rather ban people who actually care enough to actually give you the feedback you asked for, than ban you for insulting those who want to help you...
On January 02 2013 06:54 Freakling wrote: Mods would surely rather ban people who actually care enough to actually give you the feedback you asked for, than ban you for insulting those who want to help you...
I'm not insulting those who want to help me.
What he's saying is false. The map is perfect as is and actually plays exactly like fighting spirit.
Let me break it down again for you Freakling:
On fighting spirit the little river that blocks enemies from getting to your third on one side is the same as the third being close.
The distance from the other ramp to the enemy natural is the same as it is on fighting spirit. Meaning that there is actually virtually no difference.
It's actually harder slightly to expand on my map because both ramps are open to the enemy.
If your opponent expands to the left and he's at 5 it's no different than him doing it on fighting spirit.
If 2 expands at 3 it's exactly the same as on fighting spirit also.
The distance from 2 to 12 is the same on both maps as well.
It's actually just slightly longer on my map, which means that my map is actually a less easy third than fighting spirit.
If you're going to talk about my map do it in a way that makes sense. I opened photoshop and played around just to make sure this is true.
The fact that you guys found my map on here after coming here from BWMN shows that you are either jealous or pissed off that I didn't listen to your advice about my desert map.
Either way I really don't give a damn. Leave me alone.
This is not an argument it's a thread. If you continue derailing it any further I will ignore you and talk to a mod.
calm down yo, he is not derailing your thread. how is he bashing the map? he was super respectful lol, not to mention that he is completely right. FS also has positional imbalance, which is clearly visible in close positions TvP and especially TvT. tons of maps have this, Sniper Ridge is another good example. it's kind of pointless criticism since you probably won't move expansions on a finished map, but that does not make it any less true. it's not game breaking anyway, you just have to play accordingly.
fighting spirit very obviously doesn't have the same third configurations, don't know why you flame people who make true statements.
you also cant A L W A Y S expand clockwise in some matchups. If protoss spawns counterclockwise to a terran pvt you never expand towards the terran's push. Same thing as zerg doesn't expand towards protoss unless they are planning to use that third hatch for hydra bust afaik, and alos true zvt (though usually zerg expand to the opposite corner of the terran anyways if they can have lurkers on a ramp). terran on the first map in tvp can push towards the counterclockwise third using highground while fs obviously doesn't have that option, such that expanding counterclockwise in pvt on fs is probably easier.
that all said I don't think it really majorly effects map balance if other factors are good (I am not good at judging balance) since pvt, zvt you can expand cross corner and zvp you can take the third as cross corner natural. pvz offhand I think expanding counterclockwise would be fine to get the third gas.
minerals do need to be changed at the naturals as konadora posted, at least to be the same configurations. Top left and bottom right have different mineral configurations.
This thread has a point. It's called test my map and see how it actually works. It's not called "Bash the map".
PLEASE DO NOT DERAIL THE THREAD.
I'll explain it again for you. You can ALWAYS expand clockwise. Who cares.
I'll explain it a fifteenth time for you sir. YOU CAN A L W A Y S expand clockwise on this map.
Because if you can A L W A Y S expand clockwise on FS then you can A L W A Y S expand clockwise on this. So how is it imbalanced?
Now I will say it for a fourth time
STOP DERAILING MY THREAD.
If you post one more time about this argument I'm going to go tell a mod.
You are derailing a thread where the point is testing. Not finding flaws that aren't even flaws.
You can always expand clockwise. So the difference in distance doesn't matter. Especially since the distance to your third in FS is blocked off, which is no different than it being shorter in my map.
If you do it again im going to go tell a mod to ban you from my thread.
Chill out dude. The other guy is just trying to help you. (I have no idea who is actually correct about positional imbalance or not, I didn't look at the map) Even if you get feedback that you don't like or you think is wrong, please respond in a respectful manner. Saying "I am going to call a mod" is actually a pretty good way to get yourself in trouble I was going to swing into action, but I think you are just very passionate about your map and maybe got carried away a little.
So, just be calm, be nice. You will get a nice discussion about your map going, these people are just trying to help
You guys are wrong about the positional balance. It's a retarded discussion and keep it out of MY thread god damnit.
Why don't you guys go to my post on BWMN where no one cares about what you guys say either.
That way I can finish getting done what I have to accomplish here.
I already explained why there's no positional balance difference. Here guys I will do it again for you so that you can stop filling MY thread with something I CLEARLY DO NOT want MY thread to be FILLED with out of RESPECT for ME please after I EXPLAIN this one more TIME leave MY thread ALONE.
Now:
When you have something like the river blocking the ramp on Fighting spirit. A distance to the natural from the third that really doesn't bother to mean anything except for the fact that it's there and on my map you have a close ramp to mimic what is on fighting spirit.
Now. You have a distance from the other ramp to the next natural that is the same as the ramp on fighting spirit to the next natural. This means that the way the third works is exactly the same.
The distance from the natural to the third from inside the choke doesn't even mean anything. It's there because the player has easy access to the third because of the blocked river. The same thing is mimiced on my map. IF a player at 5 were to take the 6 o clock third it just means that 2 can take the 3 o clock the same exact way the 2 o clock on fighting spirit would take the 3 o clock and the same way that would work.
Now that I have cleared up why the thirds work practically identically can you please respect me and my thread and leave this discussion closed. I didn't ask for his help with this issue. I do NOT like to talk about this issue. It is not even an issue to begin with. You guys clearly have some jealousy or hate issues that I don't want to deal with. I am going to contact a moderator and put an end to this discussion. If you would like to test my map that is great. I asked for comments. Not a drawn out discussion that derails and ruins my thread. Please do not do so any further or I will contact a moderator because I'm getting angry about it.
You guys can't understand what I am saying clearly and it's the truth. I do not care, please stop this discussion. Stop derailing MY thread, and since it is MY thread I do not want to talk about this issue. The next person that posts about it will be reported.
EPT
