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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date.
Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now?
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On August 20 2017 10:23 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:16 m4ini wrote:I'm not calling for terror in any sense of the word. I'm calling for presence of the state. In most countries there's a monopoly on violence, and the implicit threat is that if you cross the line you'll be on the receiving end of it. Nazis fall strongly into the camp of people who should be aware of that threat, because if society does not uphold it, they are absolutely willing to exercise it themselves.
No, you're not. The point of violence against Nazis (state violence or otherwise) . "or otherwise" in the context of this US discussion, because in some places apparently state authority is not present. When all you have between a group of protesters and a bunch of nazis are citizens I think they have the right to use violence. But this is far from ideal or unproblematic and I said so a few days ago already. The larger point is that extremists should be so afraid that you do not have violence in the streets in the first place. Extremists only show up in large numbers if they already feel secure to do so.
If there's places without state authority (no idea, must've missed that part - the discussion moves quickly tho), then the correct thing to do is to increase state authority there, not condone vigilantism. That's such a slippery slope, i find it absolutely mindboggling that i have to point it out.
What i find even more interesting is, that if i recall correctly, you were vehemently against "Buergerwehren" in germany (me too btw, to make that clear). So how's that fitting together now?
edit: ahm.. Buergerwehren = pretty much militias. Just without guns/rifles.
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On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now?
I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion.
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Not entirely sure if going full Trump brings your point across though. You never go full Trump.
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Yes I'm against citizen militias or vigilantism, but the trump tweet of "anti-police" protesters puts this whole thing into another context. Citizens standing up to fascists aren't "antifa anti police protesters". In this situation it's ridiculous to fall back to a criticism of "both sides". we can go back to critizing the antifa when they set trashbins and bikes on fire because they think they'll bring global capitalism down. I'll be the first one to point out how stupid that is.
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On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion.
I thought that part of your post was easy enough to find, it was at the top for crying out loud.
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On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now?
he already denounced it.
you also shouldn't cross-examine/demand answers when you so often refuse to answer such things yourself; it's poor form.
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On August 20 2017 10:42 Nyxisto wrote:
Yes I'm against citizen militias or vigilantism, but the trump tweet of "anti-police" protesters puts this whole thing into another context. Citizens standing up to fascists aren't "antifa anti police protesters". In this situation it's ridiculous to fall back to a criticism of "both sides". we can go back to critizing the antifa when they set trashbins and bikes on fire because they think they'll bring global capitalism down. I'll be the first one to point out how stupid that is.
Oh.
Want me to point out the blatant bias here, or do we just agree that the entire argument you made is because it fits your narrative, rather than actually being a solution (or even close to one)?
Sidenote, nobody here is calling the counter protesters antifa. In fact i had a go at farvacola (sry fam) for exactly that. I am very much able to distinguish between left wing extremists and counter protesters. You don't really seem to be able to though, wonder why that is.
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On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion.
So condemning both sides is sufficient for you now? I applaud your new outlook.
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On August 20 2017 08:20 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 08:17 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 06:41 zlefin wrote:On August 20 2017 06:35 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2017 02:15 Plansix wrote:
Boston has this on lock. The "free speech" is going exactly how I expected it to. This is why white supremacism is an over-exaggerated problem in this country. Honestly, I think people know deep down it's all exaggerated. They know highlighting its existence pays small dividends in political discourse, and hyping it might lead to violence that plays into their hands (quisling mayors included). Play-acting brave protesters against the legion is evil is a sign of the times. quisling? I don't see how the quisling reference is apropos. and we wouldn't have these issue sif your side didn't make so much of a point of acting racist so often. and if your side didn't also engage in the exact same kind of behavior with your personal encouragement (which you have done many MANY times) (i'm referring to the behavior of highlighting the existence of small minor groups to stir up support and make it seem like they're more significant than they are). if you stop doing such behavior and encouraging it, i'd gladly do more to tamp down on my side (not that sides really exist anyways) doing it. It's been reported the mayor held his police force back from interfering until very late in the melee. It was linked in this thread. On August 20 2017 06:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you fake outrage counter-balancing now, danglars? Because come on, if that's the worst from a group of 20k people then I don't see the problem. There's no issue with a bunch of people telling a white supremacist to go fuck himself and get out of boston - this is certainly as protected speech as any message from a white supremacist.
Some person trying to take the flag from some lady, big deal also. Not saying it's model behavior, but I genuinely think that if that's the worst behavior showcased by a group of 20k people, then it's actually a much nicer and friendlier group than most 20k groups of people would be. Yes, this is poking fun at the outrage "omg he hasn't denounced omg omg omg" that's a thread standard by now. I didn't see that link (probably cuz I had to shut off some stuff which makes some things not show up right). reported by a credible source? and I still don't see how that constitutes "quisling", improper behavior of some other sort, sure; but not "quisling"; you're probably using the wrong definition of quisling. and ofc all my other points stand in their entirety.
I look forward to your delineation of quisling versus inappripriate behavior as it applies to the Charlottesville mayor.
User was warned for this post
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On August 20 2017 11:03 m4ini wrote:
Sidenote, nobody here is calling the counter protesters antifa. In fact i had a go at farvacola (sry fam) for exactly that. I am very much able to distinguish between left wing extremists and counter protesters. You don't really seem to be able to though, wonder why that is.
because I'm not gullible enough to fall for a shitty rhetorical trick? The "denounce both sides" shtick is the exact same thing as "all lives matter". "what you support black lives matter? Clearly not loving all people makes you a reverse-racist, state immediately that you like white people!" No sorry man not going to fall for that one. If nazis take it to the streets they're responsible for the violence, absolutely nobody else and there's no reason to even remotely shift the responsibility or attention
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On August 20 2017 11:12 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 08:20 zlefin wrote:On August 20 2017 08:17 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 06:41 zlefin wrote:On August 20 2017 06:35 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:This is why white supremacism is an over-exaggerated problem in this country. Honestly, I think people know deep down it's all exaggerated. They know highlighting its existence pays small dividends in political discourse, and hyping it might lead to violence that plays into their hands (quisling mayors included). Play-acting brave protesters against the legion is evil is a sign of the times. quisling? I don't see how the quisling reference is apropos. and we wouldn't have these issue sif your side didn't make so much of a point of acting racist so often. and if your side didn't also engage in the exact same kind of behavior with your personal encouragement (which you have done many MANY times) (i'm referring to the behavior of highlighting the existence of small minor groups to stir up support and make it seem like they're more significant than they are). if you stop doing such behavior and encouraging it, i'd gladly do more to tamp down on my side (not that sides really exist anyways) doing it. It's been reported the mayor held his police force back from interfering until very late in the melee. It was linked in this thread. On August 20 2017 06:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Are you fake outrage counter-balancing now, danglars? Because come on, if that's the worst from a group of 20k people then I don't see the problem. There's no issue with a bunch of people telling a white supremacist to go fuck himself and get out of boston - this is certainly as protected speech as any message from a white supremacist.
Some person trying to take the flag from some lady, big deal also. Not saying it's model behavior, but I genuinely think that if that's the worst behavior showcased by a group of 20k people, then it's actually a much nicer and friendlier group than most 20k groups of people would be. Yes, this is poking fun at the outrage "omg he hasn't denounced omg omg omg" that's a thread standard by now. I didn't see that link (probably cuz I had to shut off some stuff which makes some things not show up right). reported by a credible source? and I still don't see how that constitutes "quisling", improper behavior of some other sort, sure; but not "quisling"; you're probably using the wrong definition of quisling. and ofc all my other points stand in their entirety. I look forward to your delineation of quisling versus inappripriate behavior as it applies to the Charlottesville mayor.
go look up the meaning of the word; generally it means "traitor" particularly of the collaborator kind.
also, we've been talking about the boston case here, not charlottesville. try being more clear; and stop with the endless trolling.
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On August 20 2017 11:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion. So condemning both sides is sufficient for you now? I applaud your new outlook.
No, one side are still Nazis that support Trump. You're are still parroting that false equivalence. This is like discussing right and wrong with a 5 year old.
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One side are nazies that are intolerant and thus don't deserve tolerance. The other side is mostly peaceful protesters and a section of violent protesters that people don't really understand but don't care because they're in comparison to nazies.
Antifa are like jugglios of politics. Everyones okay with them as long as they stay in their lane and not try to be relevant.
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And the thread has returned to its highest point in months, when we discuss jugglios.
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On August 20 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 07:10 ninazerg wrote:
We should just make it illegal to say or think the wrong things. Can we start with this post? Because this post is real stupid in the context of this discussion.
Absolutely. Call your local congressperson and demand that "We should just make it illegal to say or think the wrong things" illegal to say or think!
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On August 20 2017 11:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion. So condemning both sides is sufficient for you now? I applaud your new outlook.
I have yet to see you contribute anything to any discussion thus far, besides making circuitous arguments or just plain not answering anything.
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On August 20 2017 11:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion. So condemning both sides is sufficient for you now? I applaud your new outlook.
And I applaud your intellectually dishonest reductivism, which you seem to cherish to the exclusion of anything else.
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On August 20 2017 11:22 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 11:10 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:40 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:26 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 10:24 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2017 10:03 Danglars wrote:On August 20 2017 08:37 Plansix wrote:
Danglars is here to make sure we all know that the left is bad, Mayor Martie Walsh helped them hurt conservatives and we should all ignore the fact the leader of our country only denounced Nazis when forced. And didn't mean it. Our president to date had not denounced nazis and meant it. Both sides folks, both sides. Are you prepared to denounce the left wing violence at the Boston rally? I did it last page. Read then post, so your whataboutism is up to date. Last page you refused to denounce left wing violence at the Boston rally. Are you prepared to do this now? I got all violence in one sweep, never need to do it again. This has been a very productive discussion. So condemning both sides is sufficient for you now? I applaud your new outlook. And I applaud your intellectually dishonest reductivism, which you seem to cherish to the exclusion of anything else.
Don't worry. I've seen little attempt to remain true to attacking Trump on angles you refuse to apply universally. When it's largely understood that principles can be changed to the situation, it's basically everything goes.
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United States43731 Posts
Danglars, when one side is being violent and the other side are Nazis then it's okay to condemn both sides. When one side are being violent Nazis and the other side are peacefully protesting the violent Nazis then it's not okay to condemn both sides. If you think the objection to Trump's condemnation of both sides was that it's never okay to condemn both sides, well, that's a dumb thing to think.
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