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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
The best analogy I can think of for this behaviour is the goth thing that was huge about 15-20 years ago. Everyone had goths at their school and most people thought they were a bit weird, but they didn't insist on full on fucking legal protection from disrespect. You could call someone a fucking stupid goth and not get accused of hate crime.
Actually they smelled funny, that's all i remembered from back then. That was the single point that made me hate our resident goth, i just couldn't stand that patchouli smell (sitting next to me on the bench).
edit: sorry for the anecdote, just took me back a bit :D
Although, i feel like you could draw the comparison to hipsters, it's not hate crime to call a hipster an idiot. Which they are (or at least dress like). Hell, hipster itself has gone derogatory in what, a couple of years.
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It feels to me these arguments are loosely based around a (dumb) starting point where every label conceivable is a gender.
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Given that it's still legal for private employers to fire people for being gay in 28 states, you'll have to excuse my lack of concern with regards to hypothetical tumblr inspired fears of what may or may not happen should we decide to call people whatever they want us to.
Edit: fixed it to the right number lol
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On August 19 2017 05:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It feels to me these arguments are loosely based around a (dumb) starting point where every label conceivable is a gender.
Of course. I'm more of a "there's two genders" meme type of guy. You're allowed to switch though.
Given that it's still legal for private employers to fire people for being gay in 38 states, you'll have to excuse my lack of concern with regards to hypothetical tumblr inspired fears of what may or may not happen should we decide to call people whatever they want us to.
That's an entirely different issue, we're going off into homophobia now. Transphobia/being an idiot attackhelicopter has nothing to do with gays being discriminated against, which obviously shouldn't happen.
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The mother of the woman killed Saturday as she protested against a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, will not speak to the president after his remarks earlier this week, she told ABC’s “Good Morning America” on Friday.
“I have not, and now I will not,” Susan Bro, the mother of Heather Heyer, said Friday when asked whether she had spoken with President Donald Trump. “You can't wash this one away by shaking my hand and saying I'm sorry. I'm not forgiving for that.”
Bro said the first voicemail she received from the White House appeared to come during her daughter’s memorial service on Wednesday and that she had been too busy to return other calls from Trump’s press office.
She told “Good Morning America” that she had similarly been too busy to watch the news until Thursday evening, which was the first time she saw clips from the president’s Tuesday news conference, in which he said blame for the violence over the weekend in Charlottesville should be shared between the white supremacist groups and those gathered to protest their presence. Both sides contained “very fine people,” Trump said.
In his specific remarks about Heyer, Trump has been effusive in his praise, calling her “beautiful and incredible” and “a truly special young woman.” But his comments on the protest, Heyer’s mother said, are unforgivable.
“I hadn't really watched the news until last night, and I'm not talking to the president now, I'm sorry, after what he said about my child,” she said. “And it's not that I saw somebody else's tweets about him. I saw an actual clip of him at a press conference equating the protesters like Ms. Heyer with the KKK and the white supremacists.”
Source
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On August 19 2017 05:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +The mother of the woman killed Saturday as she protested against a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, will not speak to the president after his remarks earlier this week, she told ABC’s “Good Morning America” on Friday.
“I have not, and now I will not,” Susan Bro, the mother of Heather Heyer, said Friday when asked whether she had spoken with President Donald Trump. “You can't wash this one away by shaking my hand and saying I'm sorry. I'm not forgiving for that.”
Bro said the first voicemail she received from the White House appeared to come during her daughter’s memorial service on Wednesday and that she had been too busy to return other calls from Trump’s press office.
She told “Good Morning America” that she had similarly been too busy to watch the news until Thursday evening, which was the first time she saw clips from the president’s Tuesday news conference, in which he said blame for the violence over the weekend in Charlottesville should be shared between the white supremacist groups and those gathered to protest their presence. Both sides contained “very fine people,” Trump said.
In his specific remarks about Heyer, Trump has been effusive in his praise, calling her “beautiful and incredible” and “a truly special young woman.” But his comments on the protest, Heyer’s mother said, are unforgivable.
“I hadn't really watched the news until last night, and I'm not talking to the president now, I'm sorry, after what he said about my child,” she said. “And it's not that I saw somebody else's tweets about him. I saw an actual clip of him at a press conference equating the protesters like Ms. Heyer with the KKK and the white supremacists.” Source
He better not dare lashing out at her, not even "in a clever way". And yes, i wouldn't put that behind his fragile ego.
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United States43729 Posts
On August 19 2017 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:
Yeah the non binary - random identity + pronoun thing is kind of off to me too.
I wouldn't mind it except the rest of us are supposed to somehow keep in mind a totally separate and specific mode of behaviour because a few people want to act out (not always the case but sometimes).
The best analogy I can think of for this behaviour is the goth thing that was huge about 15-20 years ago. Everyone had goths at their school and most people thought they were a bit weird, but they didn't insist on full on fucking legal protection from disrespect. You could call someone a fucking stupid goth and not get accused of hate crime.
Everything now is so shrouded in sensitivity to this stuff that you can literally change your identity for attention at will and expect the world to bend itself around your newfound needs. I find it all just a bit pathetic to be honest.
Once again I completely understand binary switching but there's a whole world of attention seeking behaviour that to me seems psychologically unhealthy (not mentally ill) and its being reinforced by the law.
Maybe I'm just old and the world has moved on past the point where i can keep up with it though.
If you worked alongside a goth and you insisted upon yelling "stupid fucking goth" at them in the workplace, surely you'd expect to get fired though? Even though they were a goth. Again, it's just about respect. That's all this has ever been about. Nobody is going to arrest you for calling goths names or misgendering trans people. Hell, I can shout nigger at black people and be legally in the clear, I'll get fired but nothing else will happen.
And if we find ourselves in a dystopian future where all those who don't respect the identities of those who identify as crab people are dragged off to reeducation camps I'll apologize and say that we should have listened to the transphobes and their fears.
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On August 19 2017 05:47 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 05:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It feels to me these arguments are loosely based around a (dumb) starting point where every label conceivable is a gender. Of course. I'm more of a "there's two genders" meme type of guy. You're allowed to switch though. Show nested quote +Given that it's still legal for private employers to fire people for being gay in 38 states, you'll have to excuse my lack of concern with regards to hypothetical tumblr inspired fears of what may or may not happen should we decide to call people whatever they want us to.
That's an entirely different issue, we're going off into homophobia now. Transphobia/being an idiot has nothing to do with gays being discriminated against, which obviously shouldn't happen.
19 of the states that do offer protections do so relative to transgender identification, while three only do so relative to sexual orientation. Like it or not, these protections tend to exist on a continuum with regards to laws.
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Well there's that fragile ego in full force.
I don't understand what they're trying to accomplish, the entire "i didn't want it anyway" or "i was going to throw that away anyway" after you drop your icecream is well known as a childs reaction.
Like, why put out a statement that by design makes you look petty and childish?
Hell, I can shout nigger at black people and be legally in the clear, I'll get fired, but nothing else will happen.
There's a joke in there, but i suppose our SJWs run berserk if someone dares - i wait for GH to make it.
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On August 19 2017 05:27 Mohdoo wrote:
If we take a bird's eye view at what is going on, we see 2 key things:
1. Populists/loyalists out
2. Military in
A significant portion of Trump's original group have been eliminated and replaced by the military. To me, this looks a lot like a semi-coup. I think it is very likely that the military is taking its own steps to ensure Trump doesn't end American dominance.
That doesn't explain Spicy or Priebus yet.
"Military in" is not as much a coup as it is that Trump is receptive to listening to generals. A coup of sorts will end in disaster.
It's more like chaos in, chaos out.
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On August 19 2017 05:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:
Yeah the non binary - random identity + pronoun thing is kind of off to me too.
I wouldn't mind it except the rest of us are supposed to somehow keep in mind a totally separate and specific mode of behaviour because a few people want to act out (not always the case but sometimes).
The best analogy I can think of for this behaviour is the goth thing that was huge about 15-20 years ago. Everyone had goths at their school and most people thought they were a bit weird, but they didn't insist on full on fucking legal protection from disrespect. You could call someone a fucking stupid goth and not get accused of hate crime.
Everything now is so shrouded in sensitivity to this stuff that you can literally change your identity for attention at will and expect the world to bend itself around your newfound needs. I find it all just a bit pathetic to be honest.
Once again I completely understand binary switching but there's a whole world of attention seeking behaviour that to me seems psychologically unhealthy (not mentally ill) and its being reinforced by the law.
Maybe I'm just old and the world has moved on past the point where i can keep up with it though. If you worked alongside a goth and you insisted upon yelling "stupid fucking goth" at them in the workplace, surely you'd expect to get fired though? Even though they were a goth. Again, it's just about respect. That's all this has ever been about. Nobody is going to arrest you for calling goths names or misgendering trans people. Hell, I can shout nigger at black people and be legally in the clear, I'll get fired but nothing else will happen.
I agree with all of this, but the issue seems to be front and center as if something has changed. I don't understand why we are even talking about it to be honest. Obviously don't be a dick at work. Its not a special type of being a dick when you're a dick to a new kind of 'protected group' is all I'm trying to say. Maybe its irrelevant to what you lot were talking about, I went back a few pages and couldn't find the start of the conversation.
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On August 19 2017 05:57 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 05:52 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:
Yeah the non binary - random identity + pronoun thing is kind of off to me too.
I wouldn't mind it except the rest of us are supposed to somehow keep in mind a totally separate and specific mode of behaviour because a few people want to act out (not always the case but sometimes).
The best analogy I can think of for this behaviour is the goth thing that was huge about 15-20 years ago. Everyone had goths at their school and most people thought they were a bit weird, but they didn't insist on full on fucking legal protection from disrespect. You could call someone a fucking stupid goth and not get accused of hate crime.
Everything now is so shrouded in sensitivity to this stuff that you can literally change your identity for attention at will and expect the world to bend itself around your newfound needs. I find it all just a bit pathetic to be honest.
Once again I completely understand binary switching but there's a whole world of attention seeking behaviour that to me seems psychologically unhealthy (not mentally ill) and its being reinforced by the law.
Maybe I'm just old and the world has moved on past the point where i can keep up with it though. If you worked alongside a goth and you insisted upon yelling "stupid fucking goth" at them in the workplace, surely you'd expect to get fired though? Even though they were a goth. Again, it's just about respect. That's all this has ever been about. Nobody is going to arrest you for calling goths names or misgendering trans people. Hell, I can shout nigger at black people and be legally in the clear, I'll get fired but nothing else will happen. I agree with all of this, but the issue seems to be front and center as if something has changed. I don't understand why we are even talking about it to be honest. Obviously don't be a dick at work. Its not a special type of being a dick when you're a dick to a new kind of 'protected group' is all I'm trying to say. Maybe its irrelevant to what you lot were talking about, I went back a few pages and couldn't find the start of the conversation.
Because people are extremely confused about what it means for Canada's hate speech or human rights laws to be adjusted to include gender. Or that these laws can exist without any nuance.
What you're saying is basically why this is not as big a deal as people pretend. You would already suffer consequences in most work places for being a jerk to your coworker. The change will largely effect either sustained discrimination or targeting of groups or individuals, or provide legal recourse for people when their HR or boss are ignoring the issues.
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United States43729 Posts
On August 19 2017 05:57 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 05:52 KwarK wrote:On August 19 2017 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:
Yeah the non binary - random identity + pronoun thing is kind of off to me too.
I wouldn't mind it except the rest of us are supposed to somehow keep in mind a totally separate and specific mode of behaviour because a few people want to act out (not always the case but sometimes).
The best analogy I can think of for this behaviour is the goth thing that was huge about 15-20 years ago. Everyone had goths at their school and most people thought they were a bit weird, but they didn't insist on full on fucking legal protection from disrespect. You could call someone a fucking stupid goth and not get accused of hate crime.
Everything now is so shrouded in sensitivity to this stuff that you can literally change your identity for attention at will and expect the world to bend itself around your newfound needs. I find it all just a bit pathetic to be honest.
Once again I completely understand binary switching but there's a whole world of attention seeking behaviour that to me seems psychologically unhealthy (not mentally ill) and its being reinforced by the law.
Maybe I'm just old and the world has moved on past the point where i can keep up with it though. If you worked alongside a goth and you insisted upon yelling "stupid fucking goth" at them in the workplace, surely you'd expect to get fired though? Even though they were a goth. Again, it's just about respect. That's all this has ever been about. Nobody is going to arrest you for calling goths names or misgendering trans people. Hell, I can shout nigger at black people and be legally in the clear, I'll get fired but nothing else will happen. I agree with all of this, but the issue seems to be front and center as if something has changed. I don't understand why we are even talking about it to be honest. Obviously don't be a dick at work. Its not a special type of being a dick when you're a dick to a new kind of 'protected group' is all I'm trying to say. Maybe its irrelevant to what you lot were talking about, I went back a few pages and couldn't find the start of the conversation.
People have greater legal rights in the case of some abuse than others. If you're being bullied by your boss then most of the time in the US it's "quit then". If you're being bullied by your boss in retaliation to your refusal to fuck him then that's a different story though. Canada added transgender bullying (bullying because they're trans, not just bullying of a trans person) to their list of bullying that your employer has to protect you from (without changing any of the existing laws, they just added it to the list). A group of crazies on the internet have since been insisting that
1) Misgendering people is now illegal in Canada.
This is false.
2) People are being imprisoned for using the wrong pronouns by accident.
This is false.
3) Freedom is dead and the trans people killed it.
This is false.
4) Soon the furries will be demanding rights too.
The bill doesn't explicitly give them any legal rights but it also doesn't explicitly rule out dragonkin as a gender identity. I'm not sure why it's so important to bully furries but we've yet to have one of them test the new law by bringing a case to the courts. We'll have to wait and see. I'm not too worried though. I'm pretty sure that judges will rule shouting "stupid dragon fucker" at dragonkin to be the regular kind of bullying and not transphobic bullying.
A much simpler explanation though is that in the time since gay marriage was legalized in the US there has been a deliberate attempt to stoke up trans panic. This hasn't appeared in a vacuum. The media has a pretty significant role in telling people what to be upset about and for a long time that was the gays and how they're going to want to marry horses if marriage stops being just a man and a woman. Someone high up in Fox News decided that going after the gays was doing more harm than good and so they switched in trans people and insisted that trans people were going to be attacking everyone in the bathrooms. This was an odd claim because trans people who pass in public have always used the bathrooms of the genders they identify with, it'd be really weird if they didn't, people would wonder why the girl was going into the men's. But they stoked up a moral panic and pretty soon it was "Obama is sending boys into girl's lockerrooms to rape them and that's why I need to beat up trans people". And that's how we're here now. Trans people got thrown into the middle of a culture war against their will because conservatives knew that if they attacked trans people then liberals would defend them and that would be a fight that would rally support within their base.
Trans people are basically doing what they've been doing forever. What changed is that gays got married.
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All right, I’ve seen the attack chopper meme enough to give people this heads up:
That joke and meme has a really weird history involving 4chan and some super transphobic stuff. So your mileage may vary on that joke when dealing with someone who is trans or is aware of the meme’s history. I’ve meet people who don’t care and folks who do not find it at all funny.
I don’t personally care, but I gave someone the impression I was a transphobic 4chan goon a couple years back and they thought I was an asshole for quite some time. So fair warning.
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On August 19 2017 06:17 Plansix wrote:
All right, I’ve seen the attack chopper meme enough to give people this heads up:
That joke and meme has a really weird history involving 4chan and some super transphobic stuff. So your mileage may vary on that joke when dealing with someone who is trans or is aware of the meme’s history. I’ve meet people who don’t care and folks who do not find it at all funny.
I don’t personally care, but I gave someone the impression I was a transphobic 4chan goon a couple years back and they thought I was an asshole for quite some time. So fair warning.
Replace attack chopper with any inanimate/fantasy object/animal. I didn't mean attack chopper literally, nobody here did i think - it's used as a single phrase to describe an issue while having transgender people explicitly detached from that.
So no, that was neither a joke, nor do i care if someone's offended by me using it after i explicitly and distinctively made the cut between "idiots" and "transpeople".
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Maybe you're right KwarK but I think its a little bit more complex than that.
You can't blame the media without acknowledging how the media has changed and moved more into the hands of the underground. I honestly think Jordan Peterson has more influence than Fox News when it comes to trans rights or specifically those who seem to be absolutely against trans rights.
Because of this the casual observer (or someone like me looking at North America from afar) only gets to see the extreme cases. I see fucking nutjob canadians screaming at Peterson like he's some kind of Nazi and I'm more inclined to take his side because the people he is talking about who are trying to shut down speech and insist on being called zee and zer etc. are right there on camera crying and bitching and screaming.
There is no benefit to anyone in simply filming normal gender neutral/non binary people having a sensible discussion about stuff, that content isn't out there in the media.
This obviously tilts how people feel.
For example I don't really know many trans people, and those who I do know are binary he/she trans. The only time I hear about the issue in America it is framed as people kicking off on a campus and assaulting people or screaming and foghorning them and of course my initial impression is that these people seem to be fucking crazy.
Obviously we all know better than to generalize on that basis but it can't help but colour your impressions of the issue. I mean you're saying that trans people are doing what they've been doing forever, and these centre right guys on Youtube absolutely disagree with you, so to me it just looks like everything's a bit different because of the extreme cases you see online.
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On August 19 2017 05:54 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 05:27 Mohdoo wrote:
If we take a bird's eye view at what is going on, we see 2 key things:
1. Populists/loyalists out
2. Military in
A significant portion of Trump's original group have been eliminated and replaced by the military. To me, this looks a lot like a semi-coup. I think it is very likely that the military is taking its own steps to ensure Trump doesn't end American dominance. That doesn't explain Spicy or Priebus yet. "Military in" is not as much a coup as it is that Trump is receptive to listening to generals. A coup of sorts will end in disaster. It's more like chaos in, chaos out.
Jeb Bush was very on point with the "chaos candidate".
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On August 19 2017 06:24 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 06:17 Plansix wrote:
All right, I’ve seen the attack chopper meme enough to give people this heads up:
That joke and meme has a really weird history involving 4chan and some super transphobic stuff. So your mileage may vary on that joke when dealing with someone who is trans or is aware of the meme’s history. I’ve meet people who don’t care and folks who do not find it at all funny.
I don’t personally care, but I gave someone the impression I was a transphobic 4chan goon a couple years back and they thought I was an asshole for quite some time. So fair warning. Replace attack chopper with any inanimate/fantasy object/animal. I didn't mean attack chopper literally, nobody here did i think - it's used as a single phrase to describe an issue while having transgender people explicitly detached from that. So no, that was neither a joke, nor do i care if someone's offended by me using it after i explicitly and distinctively made the cut between "idiots" and "transpeople".
To be clear, it is specifically the attack chopper joke. I know trans friend folks that find similar jokes funny. There was that woman who said she was married to a train station and we had a good laugh about that.
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On August 19 2017 06:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 06:24 m4ini wrote:On August 19 2017 06:17 Plansix wrote:
All right, I’ve seen the attack chopper meme enough to give people this heads up:
That joke and meme has a really weird history involving 4chan and some super transphobic stuff. So your mileage may vary on that joke when dealing with someone who is trans or is aware of the meme’s history. I’ve meet people who don’t care and folks who do not find it at all funny.
I don’t personally care, but I gave someone the impression I was a transphobic 4chan goon a couple years back and they thought I was an asshole for quite some time. So fair warning. Replace attack chopper with any inanimate/fantasy object/animal. I didn't mean attack chopper literally, nobody here did i think - it's used as a single phrase to describe an issue while having transgender people explicitly detached from that. So no, that was neither a joke, nor do i care if someone's offended by me using it after i explicitly and distinctively made the cut between "idiots" and "transpeople". To be clear, it is specifically the attack chopper joke. I know trans friend folks that find similar jokes funny. There was that woman who said she was married to a train station and we had a good laugh about that.
Yeah that's what i meant though, it wasn't intended as a joke but just as a collective term for all things "like" attackchoppers. Could've chosen fog or the train station, would've made no difference. In fact i actually didn't know that it was a "hate campaign" by 4chan, i actually thought it was supposed to poke fun at those "there's a million genders" people.
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EPT
