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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13963 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-22 23:34:50
November 22 2016 23:34 GMT
#125801
On November 23 2016 08:29 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2016 08:18 Sermokala wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:03 ZapRoffo wrote:
On November 23 2016 07:53 Sermokala wrote:
Especially with the winter setting in now and the snow they should clear everything out to make sure people don't die form the cold. Let them come back in the spring if they want to. same deal with OWS.


Spray them with cold water so they don't die of cold--brilliant! Aside from that, if anything is being a nanny state, this is. I really don't understand why the police are so confrontational about it, especially since the construction isn't scheduled to go on right now anyway.


I'm saying that they shouldn't be doing that they should just clear out the protesters camp and be done with the protests for the public health. People coming in from warmer climates will die if they're unprepared during a cold snap.

Tachion you clearly have a problem with comprehension because I repeatedly said nothing about you comparing the alt right to the KKK I was attacking your shitty post and the way you were arguing in bad faith.

But we've already covered how there are neo nazies and kkk-lite people in the alt right, Its not news and it just makes you look dumb. Its like me comparing feminists to anti male activists, its just bad faith arguing.

What you call bad faith arguing, I call seeking verification of personal observations. And it looks like my observations line up pretty damn close to the truth

So you're literally admitting to confirming your own bias. Good to know you don't harbor the illusion of arguing in good faith.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 22 2016 23:47 GMT
#125802
On November 23 2016 08:34 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2016 08:29 Tachion wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:18 Sermokala wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:03 ZapRoffo wrote:
On November 23 2016 07:53 Sermokala wrote:
Especially with the winter setting in now and the snow they should clear everything out to make sure people don't die form the cold. Let them come back in the spring if they want to. same deal with OWS.


Spray them with cold water so they don't die of cold--brilliant! Aside from that, if anything is being a nanny state, this is. I really don't understand why the police are so confrontational about it, especially since the construction isn't scheduled to go on right now anyway.


I'm saying that they shouldn't be doing that they should just clear out the protesters camp and be done with the protests for the public health. People coming in from warmer climates will die if they're unprepared during a cold snap.

Tachion you clearly have a problem with comprehension because I repeatedly said nothing about you comparing the alt right to the KKK I was attacking your shitty post and the way you were arguing in bad faith.

But we've already covered how there are neo nazies and kkk-lite people in the alt right, Its not news and it just makes you look dumb. Its like me comparing feminists to anti male activists, its just bad faith arguing.

What you call bad faith arguing, I call seeking verification of personal observations. And it looks like my observations line up pretty damn close to the truth

So you're literally admitting to confirming your own bias. Good to know you don't harbor the illusion of arguing in good faith.

You might as well call me biased for assuming the sun is hot as well. The evidence was all pointing in one direction, with little to no say otherwise.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13963 Posts
November 22 2016 23:56 GMT
#125803
On November 23 2016 08:47 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2016 08:34 Sermokala wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:29 Tachion wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:18 Sermokala wrote:
On November 23 2016 08:03 ZapRoffo wrote:
On November 23 2016 07:53 Sermokala wrote:
Especially with the winter setting in now and the snow they should clear everything out to make sure people don't die form the cold. Let them come back in the spring if they want to. same deal with OWS.


Spray them with cold water so they don't die of cold--brilliant! Aside from that, if anything is being a nanny state, this is. I really don't understand why the police are so confrontational about it, especially since the construction isn't scheduled to go on right now anyway.


I'm saying that they shouldn't be doing that they should just clear out the protesters camp and be done with the protests for the public health. People coming in from warmer climates will die if they're unprepared during a cold snap.

Tachion you clearly have a problem with comprehension because I repeatedly said nothing about you comparing the alt right to the KKK I was attacking your shitty post and the way you were arguing in bad faith.

But we've already covered how there are neo nazies and kkk-lite people in the alt right, Its not news and it just makes you look dumb. Its like me comparing feminists to anti male activists, its just bad faith arguing.

What you call bad faith arguing, I call seeking verification of personal observations. And it looks like my observations line up pretty damn close to the truth

So you're literally admitting to confirming your own bias. Good to know you don't harbor the illusion of arguing in good faith.

You might as well call me biased for assuming the sun is hot as well. The evidence was all pointing in one direction, with little to no say otherwise.

Then you're an idiot that doesn't understand how labeling works. the sun isn't that hot compared to other stars. Correlation is not causation. Generalizing and stereotyping a group based on how some in that group act is wrong and doesn't lead anywhere good.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4787 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-22 23:59:05
November 22 2016 23:58 GMT
#125804
Doing things like this would assuage fears that he's going to fill positions with yes-men. I assume all three of these people will make their differences known.

President-elect Donald Trump is leaning toward asking former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney to be his secretary of state, according to people familiar with the deliberations.

The next U.S. president is also likely to name retired Marine Gen. James Mattis to serve as secretary of defense in his administration, and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley is the leading candidate to be the next ambassador to the United Nations, the people said.



Delaying Mr. Trump’s decision about secretary of state is an internal tug of war between supporters of Mr. Romney, and those urging the selection of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. A third group is pressing the president-elect to keep searching for candidates.

The New York businessman views Mr. Romney as the prototypical choice to be the nation’s top diplomat, and a group of advisers inside the transition are pushing him to select the 2012 Republican presidential nominee. Two people said Mr. Trump is inclined to select Mr. Romney.


www.wsj.com
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
November 23 2016 00:02 GMT
#125805
I'll be really impressed if Romney gets SoS. That would be awesome, not only do I think he's really capable but it shows trump is pragmatic.
Question.?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 23 2016 00:04 GMT
#125806
Well it does seem like failed presidential candidates have a track record of becoming Secretary of State. Why not Romney then?

He'd be a status quo SoS, but Trump is hardly the kind of person who would seek to change that. I'd be ok with it, all things considered.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28675 Posts
November 23 2016 00:07 GMT
#125807
oh god I hope he chooses romney over guiliani. Guiliani would be a complete disaster, Romney ensures some stability and competence in the most important secretary. Would also show that loyalty is not his primary determiner, and that'd be quite reassuring.
Moderator
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-23 00:24:23
November 23 2016 00:21 GMT
#125808
While I don't really see what qualifies Romney for Secretary of State, I didn't really see what qualified Clinton either (Kerry was another story). I didn't even realize there were rumblings he might pick Guiliani-does Giuliani even want the job? He doesn't seem to have the shrewdness or calculatingness down at all.
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3889 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-23 00:26:32
November 23 2016 00:26 GMT
#125809
On November 23 2016 07:40 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2016 07:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A 21-year-old woman was severely injured and may lose her arm after being hit by a projectile when North Dakota law enforcement officers turned a water cannon on Dakota Access pipeline protesters and threw “less-than-lethal” weapons, according to the woman’s father.

Sophia Wilansky was one of several hundred protesters injured during the standoff with police on Sunday on a bridge near the site where the pipeline is planned to cross under the Missouri river.

Graphic photographs of her injured arm with broken bones visible were circulated on social media.

“The best-case scenario is no pain and 10-20% functionality,” said Wayne Wilansky, Sophia’s father, who travelled to Minneapolis where his daughter underwent eight hours of surgery on Monday. He said his daughter had been hit by a concussion grenade thrown by a police officer and that the arteries, median nerve, muscle and bone in her left arm had been “blown away”.

Sophia will require additional surgery in the next few days and her arm may still have to be amputated, he added. “She’s devastated. She looks at her arm and she cries,” he said.

Sophia Wilansky is one of thousands of activists who have travelled to the Standing Rock Sioux reservation in North Dakota to attempt to halt the construction of the pipeline. Members of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe established a “spiritual camp” on the banks of the Missouri in April. The tribe fears the pipeline will jeopardise their water supply and say that construction has disturbed sacred burial grounds.

The activists, who call themselves “water protectors”, have faced a heavily militarised police force. More than 400 protesters have been arrested by law enforcement officers who have deployed pepper spray, teargas, rubber bullets, Tasers, sound weapons and other “less-than-lethal” methods.

Following Sunday’s confrontation 26 protesters were taken to hospital and more than 300 injured, according to the Standing Rock Medic & Healer Council. Most of the injured had hypothermia after being hit by a water cannon in below-freezing weather.


Source

The authorities should just clear everyone out. That stupid protest has gone on long enough.


If you legitimately mean everyone, including the companies, then yes I totally agree.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-23 00:30:48
November 23 2016 00:29 GMT
#125810
On November 23 2016 09:21 TheTenthDoc wrote:
While I don't really see what qualifies Romney for Secretary of State, I didn't really see what qualified Clinton either (Kerry was another story). I didn't even realize there were rumblings he might pick Guiliani-does Giuliani even want the job? He doesn't seem to have the shrewdness or calculatingness down at all.


i mean, the bar is now apparently potentially competent, non insane white male

in fairness, romney is a smart guy. he was governor of MA and built bain capital (which is something i do find impressive though a lot of the left thinks its some kind of evil entity).

giuliani wouldn't make it through confirmation hearings.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 23 2016 00:29 GMT
#125811
On November 23 2016 09:21 TheTenthDoc wrote:
While I don't really see what qualifies Romney for Secretary of State, I didn't really see what qualified Clinton either (Kerry was another story). I didn't even realize there were rumblings he might pick Guiliani-does Giuliani even want the job? He doesn't seem to have the shrewdness or calculatingness down at all.


i'm goign to look up his CV later. in the meantime, what qualifications do you think a SoS should have?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18830 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-23 00:32:45
November 23 2016 00:32 GMT
#125812
As much as I dislike the faith, Mormons typically have a pretty good sense for international relations given the emphasis they place on foreign missionary work. Romney doesn't have much actual governance experience, but as has been said above, that may not even matter with loons like Giuliani in the wings.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 23 2016 00:33 GMT
#125813
The question is, in four years will we be talking about Romney's secret private email server he used while in office?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
BallinWitStalin
Profile Joined July 2008
1177 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-11 19:24:48
November 23 2016 00:46 GMT
#125814
I await the reminiscent nerd chills I will get when I hear a Korean broadcaster yell "WEEAAAAVVVVVUUUHHH" while watching Dota
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 23 2016 00:49 GMT
#125815
On November 23 2016 08:58 Introvert wrote:
Doing things like this would assuage fears that he's going to fill positions with yes-men. I assume all three of these people will make their differences known.

Show nested quote +
President-elect Donald Trump is leaning toward asking former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney to be his secretary of state, according to people familiar with the deliberations.

The next U.S. president is also likely to name retired Marine Gen. James Mattis to serve as secretary of defense in his administration, and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley is the leading candidate to be the next ambassador to the United Nations, the people said.

Delaying Mr. Trump’s decision about secretary of state is an internal tug of war between supporters of Mr. Romney, and those urging the selection of former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. A third group is pressing the president-elect to keep searching for candidates.

The New York businessman views Mr. Romney as the prototypical choice to be the nation’s top diplomat, and a group of advisers inside the transition are pushing him to select the 2012 Republican presidential nominee. Two people said Mr. Trump is inclined to select Mr. Romney.


www.wsj.com

I'd trust Romney over Giuliani any day. It does however sadden me if those are the only two seriously in the running.

I also have a close friend and fellow Californian in the running for Sec of Education, probably in the lower half of likely candidates. He got a call from the transition team so here's to hoping!

President-elect Donald Trump denied Tuesday that he did anything to energize the "alt-right" movement through his presidential campaign and sought to distance himself from it, even though many of the movement's leaders have sought to tether their political views to Trump's rise.

"I don't want to energize the group, and I disavow the group," Trump told a group of New York Times reporters and columnists during a meeting at the newspaper's headquarters in New York.

"It's not a group I want to energize, and if they are energized, I want to look into it and find out why," he added, according to one of the Times reporters in the room, Michael Grynbaum.

Trump offered up the condemnation of the alt-right, a far-right political movement rife with white nationalist, anti-Semitic and racist ideologies, after The New York Times' executive editor Dean Baquet asked Trump if he feels he did things to energize the alt-right.

Trump's comments come days after Richard Spencer, a white supremacist and leading figure in the alt-right, delivered a racist and anti-Semitic address to a gathering of the group's members in which he declared, emphatically, "Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!"

CNN

Probably not necessary, given how many of his supporters know it's nonsense, but he does it anyways. Of course, the narrative line continues in other stories condemning him for not doing it early enough or denouncing strongly enough. Oh well.

Nearly 20 years ago, Radiohead released “Karma Police,” the second single on their groundbreaking album “OK Computer.” The song is an anthem for an illiberal age. It opens with a demand, “Karma police / Arrest this man,” and the refrain sounds a warning, “This is what you’ll get / When you mess with us.”

Given his left-wing politics, Thom Yorke no doubt feared conformity of thought and suppression of speech and dissent would come from the political Right, and from the homogenizing effects of capitalism and consumer culture.

He was right that we were entering an era of intolerance, but wrong to think it would come from conservatives. Our illiberal moment, and the popular culture that creates and sustains it, is almost wholly a creation of the Left.

Every passing day since the presidential election bears this out. The spasms of outrage and protest that have rocked the country since Donald Trump’s election have revealed what should have been plain to see for a long time: progressives are through debating; they are interested only in enforcing their views.

They believe they have won the culture wars, that there is no room left for dissent on matters like gay marriage, abortion, and transgender entitlements. They believe, too, that questions of public policy, from health care to entitlements and welfare, have been settled once and for all. Any remaining dissenters should feel the full weight of the administrative state, with all its powerful mechanisms.

Don’t want to bake a cake for a gay wedding? We’ll put you out of business. Donate to the wrong political cause? You’ll lose your job. Don’t want to pay for government-mandated birth control for your employees? We’ll haul you before the Supreme Court, even if you’re a group of septuagenarian Catholic nuns. This is what you’ll get when you mess with us.

The Federalist

He gives a good take on the continuing weeks of intolerance and illiberal attitudes from the left. Just like some here in this thread, hardcore dismissiveness and argument from ideology will only catalyze the rebellion.
+ Show Spoiler [Tweets on art/pol] +









It's pretty telling how few people came out to condemn the means apart from the message.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 23 2016 00:52 GMT
#125816
I can't really think of any politician of any prominence who I'd want as SoS. The status quo is about the best I could hope for.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 23 2016 00:59 GMT
#125817
danglars -> yawn, that's just more of your hating on the left, while ignoring when the right does such things. yes there are some issues with some on the left going too far, but there are other legitimate concerns too. and the cases cited simply demonstrate the deep flaws in the argument, as they don't make the case that well to anyone who has looked at those cases closely.

also, you don't try to disavow the bad guys to satisfy the people on your own side, but to satisfy those that are concerned abotu what you're doing. why complain about "narrative lines" when you're also using different ones? the narratives of both sides continue even if flawed. are you condemning the flawed narrative lines your side uses?


re: SoS
upon reviewing romney's CV, it does seem a bit thin for SoS. I'd like to see some other options. Does the gov't ever release the short lists, and analyses for/against various possibilities?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
November 23 2016 01:06 GMT
#125818
It's pretty depressing to think that Trump's other picks have been so terrible that we've come to see Romney being chosen for Secretary of State as good news. Especially given we could have had people like Wendy Sherman, Bill Burns, Strobe Talbott and Kurt Campbell instead. Oh well, he'd still be miles better than Giuliani, so I guess that's something.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 23 2016 01:09 GMT
#125819
I mean at least it looks like he's might not pull the US out of the Paris climate change agreement after all. Everything else you guys have to live with but that could have screwed everybody over
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 23 2016 01:16 GMT
#125820
On November 23 2016 10:09 Nyxisto wrote:
I mean at least it looks like he's might not pull the US out of the Paris climate change agreement after all. Everything else you guys have to live with but that could have screwed everybody over

At the end of the day I do expect him to be pushed towards sanity on certain issues of global importance. He will probably uphold the Paris Accords and maintain an essentially status quo position on foreign policy matters. I do expect him to build the wall and ditch trade agreements, but those trade deals were already crumbling before his election. The anti-trade pressures are strong.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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