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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 28

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 02:00:32
December 08 2012 01:59 GMT
#541
both of them were intellectuals, Buckley more than Ayn Rand though (in the sense of making one's living through intellectual pursuits rather than simply writing)

as for who is more influential, we'd have to wait and see to be really sure, but as it stands conservatism trumps objectivisim/libertarianism in terms of political influence/popularity. only talking about the 20th century and only speaking politically, Buckley would be the clear winner. he helped create the modern conservative movement, owned the John Birch Society, founded National Review, and did more to elect Reagan than anyone else except perhaps Reagan himself. the modern GOP (and to some degree, the modern DNC) would not look nor argue as they do without his work.

Lee Atwater's particular influence... well, let's just say that's one more bone I have to pick with history.

edit: also, i would argue that the greatest (and certainly the most influential) intellectuals have all been either religious or political figures.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 02:03:04
December 08 2012 02:00 GMT
#542
On December 08 2012 06:33 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 05:29 acker wrote:
On December 08 2012 05:27 BluePanther wrote:
I'll make it simple for you: The more you tinker with a tax code, the more difficult it becomes for the average person to work with it.

It's pretty simple logic.

I'll make it even simpler for you: you can't think of any way to implement a carbon tax so benefits exceed costs?


Of course I can. But that's a completely different issue than the one I was talking about.

On the contrary, it's exactly the same issue. The only way it couldn't be the same issue is if you think any carbon tax system would complicate the tax code so much that it wouldn't be worth it.

The benefit is the revenue and the anti-distortionary effects. The cost is what you allege to be a more complicated tax code.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 02:26:30
December 08 2012 02:24 GMT
#543
On December 08 2012 10:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
both of them were intellectuals, Buckley more than Ayn Rand though (in the sense of making one's living through intellectual pursuits rather than simply writing)

as for who is more influential, we'd have to wait and see to be really sure, but as it stands conservatism trumps objectivisim/libertarianism in terms of political influence/popularity. only talking about the 20th century and only speaking politically, Buckley would be the clear winner. he helped create the modern conservative movement, owned the John Birch Society, founded National Review, and did more to elect Reagan than anyone else except perhaps Reagan himself. the modern GOP (and to some degree, the modern DNC) would not look nor argue as they do without his work.

Lee Atwater's particular influence... well, let's just say that's one more bone I have to pick with history.

edit: also, i would argue that the greatest (and certainly the most influential) intellectuals have all been either religious or political figures.

I would argue the opposite: That the greatest intellectuals have been philosophers and mathematicians. To some degree there are crossover between philosophy and politics and to a far lesser degree from mathematics to politics, but I would argue that Karl Marx and John Maynard Keynes are more founded in philosophy/math than politics. Religion is interesting. Politics has much in common with religion in that none of them have all the facts. Both have to change their stances and adapt their belief when philosophy and math changes to keep up the belief or become anti-intellectual!
Repeat before me
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
December 08 2012 02:36 GMT
#544
On December 08 2012 10:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
both of them were intellectuals


i didn't say she wasn't one, i said she wasn't much of one
shikata ga nai
frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 06:59:22
December 08 2012 03:55 GMT
#545
On December 08 2012 10:38 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 09:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On December 08 2012 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Ayn Rand was America's most important intellectual of the 20th century.

William F. Buckley Jr. stomps her face. Metaphorically, of course.

Not sure William F. Buckley was so much of an intellectial. Supporting Franco and Pinochet is not exactly the definition of a good judgement and though he might have had a strong influence on the definition of conservatism I don't believe that any real intellectual in USA would be a person with strong political ties. Lee Atwater would be even more influential on the rhetoric, though anti-intellectualism is closer to his style.

As for Ayn Rand, I have only read little of her work and I truely doubt her objectivity in her statements on publishing, films and other creative endeavours. Holding that copyright should be lifetime +50 years seems completely out there with her complete lack of proof or even reasoning for especially the +50 years. So much for her "Objectivism"!

If you want to go to the less mainstream intellectual world in USA, I would plead for Saul Kripke or David Kelogg Lewis. None of them actually worked in political circles.


Well, the original post said "important" rather than "best", which probably complicates things.

Out of U.S. philosophers, Kuhn and Rawls have almost certainly been more influential than Kripke and Lewis. The influence of the latter is a bit more confined to philosophy, though they're both very important in linguistics too. The former, on the other hand, have filtered into a lot of other disciplines like sociology and political science. Presidents read Rawls.

And in terms of impact just in philosophy, Quine probably still has a leg up on Kripke and Lewis too.

All that said, my vote goes probably to Noam Chomsky for most important 20th century U.S. intellectual of any discipline.

edit: A note to libertarians. If you want to support an "intellectual", go with Nozick instead of Rand.
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
December 08 2012 08:22 GMT
#546
On December 08 2012 06:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Ayn Rand was America's most important intellectual of the 20th century.


It's not too hard to think of much more influential people, like for example Leo Strauss. Rand was not any kind of mover in terms of capitalism; quite on the contrary, she was more of a sucker: she was a true believer who never accrued wealth or power herself, while helping others to do so, despite being selfish.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 08:58:10
December 08 2012 08:57 GMT
#547
On December 08 2012 09:17 TheFrankOne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 06:39 BluePanther wrote:
On December 08 2012 05:34 TheFrankOne wrote:
@BluePanther and OneOfThem: C'mon you guys, this kind of sourcelss partisan bickering over something incredible vague like "who makes the tax code more complicated" with no real information is something we should be avoiding. I wouldn't be surprised if both parties support the largest distortions in the tax code.


I'm not even being partisan... And this isn't exactly source-worthy. It's common knowledge that Democrats are more hands-on with the economy and prefer using tax credits/hikes to encourage good behavior. It's common sense really. The statement I made is that you need to be careful you don't make it so complex that average people can't work with it (which it is getting to that point).

Think about all the Democrat proposals to simplify taxes in the past 10 years. I can't name one. Sure, they want to make it "more fair", but they don't have any proposals that actually simplify the system currently in place.

Now the Republicans: Flat+NIT, Flat, National sales tax, 9-9-9, etc. Not that they're smarter, but they sure are simpler. How you can say I'm being partisan is beyond me.


I'm not really big on common sense man, I like sources or at least details so I can look things up and if you call me out on having no sources, I will find some or apologize. So I disagree about the "source-worthy thing".

Your examples of tax distorting policies is largely why I called you partisan. I really doubt a production tax credit for wind energy has much effect on how a regular guy does his taxes. Make those kinds of comments and I will call you partisan every time. Plus it tends to help not get people riled up if you call two people partisan, one from each side.

Except for Flat+NIT those Republican proposals are jokes, I'm not even talking about them on policy grounds. They simply never had a hope of becoming real, its like saying Democrats have actually tried to fix the health care system because some primary candidate proposed single payer.

National sales tax is the FAIR tax proposal right? That's the one where the math only works if the government receives the revenue from it paying the tax on its own expenditures and only then if prices that the government pays doesn't go up because of the tax, its a joke no one takes seriously.

Democrats are not really opposed to simplifying the tax code, Republicans proposals need to stop looking so much like an excuse to decrease the progressiveness of the tax code with the paper thin excuse of "simplifying it". Or just not making a damn bit of sense, they really, really need to stop that. Tacking on things to make it more progressive without changing the base rates, like Herman Cain suggested when the math doesn't seem to work in the first place just wrecks the budget.

Plus the bipartisan Simpson Bowles commission had massive tax reform as part of the plan. Also, there is the vote on the tax reform act of 1986. Simplification was huge part of that plan.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/99-1986/s529

Yes, three dems voted against it but that's less than 10% of their members. Why might they be opposed to the "tax reform" proposals today?

From The Craze for Flat Taxes
+ Show Spoiler +
That, by all reckonings but Mr Cain's, would provide the rich with a whopping tax break (chiefly because tax on capital gains and dividends would be eliminated), paid for by higher taxes on everyone else. It was concerns about how regressive the switch to a flat tax would be that caused Mr Forbes's campaigns to founder. At the time, a certain Mitt Romney called it “a tax cut for fat cats”.

This time around, however, raising taxes on the poor seems to be a point of pride among Republican candidates, although Mr Cain has modified his original plan slightly to make it less regressive. In launching his campaign, Mr Perry expressed dismay at “the injustice” that 47% of Americans do not pay any federal income taxes. Most of the people Mr Perry is referring to live below the poverty line, and still pay payroll taxes on what little they earn. Yet an indignant campaign called “We are the 53%” has sprung up online, to complain about the loafing remainder. Most of the Republican candidates, including Mr Romney, the erstwhile scourge of the fat cats, argue that more of the poor should pay at least some income tax. Mr Gingrich goes even further, accusing both Mr Perry and Mr Romney of “class warfare” for putting upper limits on certain tax breaks in their plans.


Simplifying the tax code is not high on the Dems agenda but that's because they don't believe tax reforms are magic things that immediately fix the economy.

Plus Conservative economists really like the idea of using the tax code to effect incentives. A former chairman of the council of economic advisers under Bush supports a $1 federal gas tax. He also has compiled a helpful list of economists who agree with the general principle of using taxes to influence behavior. (the majority of them, left right and center)

Why gas tax is good:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/10/pigou-club-manifesto.html
List:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/09/rogoff-joins-pigou-club.html

+ Show Spoiler +
. I would like to see Congress increase the gas tax by $1 per gallon, phased in gradually by 10 cents per year over the next decade. Campaign consultants aren't fond of this kind of proposal, but policy wonks keep pushing for it.


Finally here is quote from Obama: "We’ve got to have tax reform"

That got a little ranty because Republican tax policies really grind my gears.

TL;DR: I called you partisan because your vague and sourceless examples of tax credits that Dems pushed through do not support your conclusion about the average guy being able to do his taxes. IMO anyways. Plus serious people on both sides support using the tax code to influence some behavior while reducing the complexity of our current, outdated tax code.

My source: Every discussion I've ever had on this subject with a Democratic lawmaker, policymaker, reporter, or politician.

You're wrong, I'm right. I know it hurts your feelings because it makes you look like the "bad guy" (I can tell from your tone in that response that you are a Democrat or sympathize with Democrats), but the truth just isn't with you on this one. It's ok. Your favored party doesn't always end up supporting everything you like or represent everything that you personally want them to. And that's a good thing.
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 09:42:42
December 08 2012 09:38 GMT
#548
On December 08 2012 17:57 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 09:17 TheFrankOne wrote:
On December 08 2012 06:39 BluePanther wrote:
On December 08 2012 05:34 TheFrankOne wrote:
@BluePanther and OneOfThem: C'mon you guys, this kind of sourcelss partisan bickering over something incredible vague like "who makes the tax code more complicated" with no real information is something we should be avoiding. I wouldn't be surprised if both parties support the largest distortions in the tax code.


I'm not even being partisan... And this isn't exactly source-worthy. It's common knowledge that Democrats are more hands-on with the economy and prefer using tax credits/hikes to encourage good behavior. It's common sense really. The statement I made is that you need to be careful you don't make it so complex that average people can't work with it (which it is getting to that point).

Think about all the Democrat proposals to simplify taxes in the past 10 years. I can't name one. Sure, they want to make it "more fair", but they don't have any proposals that actually simplify the system currently in place.

Now the Republicans: Flat+NIT, Flat, National sales tax, 9-9-9, etc. Not that they're smarter, but they sure are simpler. How you can say I'm being partisan is beyond me.


I'm not really big on common sense man, I like sources or at least details so I can look things up and if you call me out on having no sources, I will find some or apologize. So I disagree about the "source-worthy thing".

Your examples of tax distorting policies is largely why I called you partisan. I really doubt a production tax credit for wind energy has much effect on how a regular guy does his taxes. Make those kinds of comments and I will call you partisan every time. Plus it tends to help not get people riled up if you call two people partisan, one from each side.

Except for Flat+NIT those Republican proposals are jokes, I'm not even talking about them on policy grounds. They simply never had a hope of becoming real, its like saying Democrats have actually tried to fix the health care system because some primary candidate proposed single payer.

National sales tax is the FAIR tax proposal right? That's the one where the math only works if the government receives the revenue from it paying the tax on its own expenditures and only then if prices that the government pays doesn't go up because of the tax, its a joke no one takes seriously.

Democrats are not really opposed to simplifying the tax code, Republicans proposals need to stop looking so much like an excuse to decrease the progressiveness of the tax code with the paper thin excuse of "simplifying it". Or just not making a damn bit of sense, they really, really need to stop that. Tacking on things to make it more progressive without changing the base rates, like Herman Cain suggested when the math doesn't seem to work in the first place just wrecks the budget.

Plus the bipartisan Simpson Bowles commission had massive tax reform as part of the plan. Also, there is the vote on the tax reform act of 1986. Simplification was huge part of that plan.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/99-1986/s529

Yes, three dems voted against it but that's less than 10% of their members. Why might they be opposed to the "tax reform" proposals today?

From The Craze for Flat Taxes
+ Show Spoiler +
That, by all reckonings but Mr Cain's, would provide the rich with a whopping tax break (chiefly because tax on capital gains and dividends would be eliminated), paid for by higher taxes on everyone else. It was concerns about how regressive the switch to a flat tax would be that caused Mr Forbes's campaigns to founder. At the time, a certain Mitt Romney called it “a tax cut for fat cats”.

This time around, however, raising taxes on the poor seems to be a point of pride among Republican candidates, although Mr Cain has modified his original plan slightly to make it less regressive. In launching his campaign, Mr Perry expressed dismay at “the injustice” that 47% of Americans do not pay any federal income taxes. Most of the people Mr Perry is referring to live below the poverty line, and still pay payroll taxes on what little they earn. Yet an indignant campaign called “We are the 53%” has sprung up online, to complain about the loafing remainder. Most of the Republican candidates, including Mr Romney, the erstwhile scourge of the fat cats, argue that more of the poor should pay at least some income tax. Mr Gingrich goes even further, accusing both Mr Perry and Mr Romney of “class warfare” for putting upper limits on certain tax breaks in their plans.


Simplifying the tax code is not high on the Dems agenda but that's because they don't believe tax reforms are magic things that immediately fix the economy.

Plus Conservative economists really like the idea of using the tax code to effect incentives. A former chairman of the council of economic advisers under Bush supports a $1 federal gas tax. He also has compiled a helpful list of economists who agree with the general principle of using taxes to influence behavior. (the majority of them, left right and center)

Why gas tax is good:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/10/pigou-club-manifesto.html
List:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/09/rogoff-joins-pigou-club.html

+ Show Spoiler +
. I would like to see Congress increase the gas tax by $1 per gallon, phased in gradually by 10 cents per year over the next decade. Campaign consultants aren't fond of this kind of proposal, but policy wonks keep pushing for it.


Finally here is quote from Obama: "We’ve got to have tax reform"

That got a little ranty because Republican tax policies really grind my gears.

TL;DR: I called you partisan because your vague and sourceless examples of tax credits that Dems pushed through do not support your conclusion about the average guy being able to do his taxes. IMO anyways. Plus serious people on both sides support using the tax code to influence some behavior while reducing the complexity of our current, outdated tax code.

My source: Every discussion I've ever had on this subject with a Democratic lawmaker, policymaker, reporter, or politician.

You're wrong, I'm right. I know it hurts your feelings because it makes you look like the "bad guy" (I can tell from your tone in that response that you are a Democrat or sympathize with Democrats), but the truth just isn't with you on this one. It's ok. Your favored party doesn't always end up supporting everything you like or represent everything that you personally want them to. And that's a good thing.


Tax incentives are like pork: politicians all claim to be against it in general, but always demur over specifics. It is one of the few truly bipartisan issues in that sense. That a few Republicans intentionally promote nonsensical plans they never intend to go into effect (and occasionally have to vote against themselves when the Democrats call their bluff) doesn't really change the political calculus all that much except for influencing voters.

edit: for clarity, I had misremembered: the Democrats nearly forced the GOP to vote no, but not quite, and the most recent example is actually a Republican filibustering his own bill.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 13:18:49
December 08 2012 13:13 GMT
#549
On December 08 2012 18:38 HunterX11 wrote:
Tax incentives are like pork: politicians all claim to be against it in general, but always demur over specifics. It is one of the few truly bipartisan issues in that sense. That a few Republicans intentionally promote nonsensical plans they never intend to go into effect (and occasionally have to vote against themselves when the Democrats call their bluff) doesn't really change the political calculus all that much except for influencing voters.


A lot of Republicans promote simpler plans (non-sensical is your opinion).
A lot of Democrats usually desire more complex, progressive plans (often-times just as if not more complex than the current one).

^^ This is not a partisan statement. It was a policy observation. I got called out on this statement and this statement only. It's like people keep putting words into my mouth that I never said... Just because I'm a republican doesn't mean I share the opinion of every dumb republican stereotype you have. I hold more progressive views on taxation than most Democrats.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
December 08 2012 13:26 GMT
#550
BTW (on a completely different note), for any of you wannabe tax policy buffs, please learn about pass through taxation. Most people who "want to raise taxes on higher income families" are completely oblivious to how our business taxation is structured in the USA. You can't jack up rates on the <2mil income range without addressing this.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17486 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 14:21:58
December 08 2012 13:58 GMT
#551
On December 08 2012 10:43 sam!zdat wrote:
not sure ayn rand was so much of an intellectual, either

literary genius and intellectual.

[image loading]

ask a couple of her disciples
like Nathaniel Blumenthal and Alan Greenspan.
they are still alive and fairly easy to speak with informally.

she gave libertarians a meta-ethical foundation upon which they can base their views.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
December 08 2012 14:24 GMT
#552
On December 08 2012 22:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 10:43 sam!zdat wrote:
not sure ayn rand was so much of an intellectual, either

literary genius and intellectual.

[image loading]

ask a couple of her disciples
like Nathaniel Blumenthal and Alan Greenspan.
they are still alive and fairly easy to speak with informally.

she gave libertarians a meta-ethical foundation upon which they can base their views.


I wouldn't exactly call her a literary genius. Most of her books just become ramblings at times, despite my favorite book being We the Living. I actually skipped 50 pages of the Rearden rant.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17486 Posts
December 08 2012 14:44 GMT
#553
On December 08 2012 23:24 BluePanther wrote:
I wouldn't exactly call her a literary genius. Most of her books just become ramblings at times, despite my favorite book being We the Living. I actually skipped 50 pages of the Rearden rant.

any one who can get an 1,100 page book to sell for 50+ years is a genius
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 14:52:38
December 08 2012 14:52 GMT
#554
or appeals to people who think ayn rand is an intellectual.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
December 08 2012 15:51 GMT
#555
On December 08 2012 22:13 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 18:38 HunterX11 wrote:
Tax incentives are like pork: politicians all claim to be against it in general, but always demur over specifics. It is one of the few truly bipartisan issues in that sense. That a few Republicans intentionally promote nonsensical plans they never intend to go into effect (and occasionally have to vote against themselves when the Democrats call their bluff) doesn't really change the political calculus all that much except for influencing voters.


A lot of Republicans promote simpler plans (non-sensical is your opinion).
A lot of Democrats usually desire more complex, progressive plans (often-times just as if not more complex than the current one).

^^ This is not a partisan statement. It was a policy observation. I got called out on this statement and this statement only. It's like people keep putting words into my mouth that I never said... Just because I'm a republican doesn't mean I share the opinion of every dumb republican stereotype you have. I hold more progressive views on taxation than most Democrats.


What do complexity and progressiveness even have to do with each other? While I realize that most people aren't familiar with the concept of tax brackets, it is probably the LEAST complex part of a tax code. You could have a tax code with thousands of possible deductions and tax credits and loopholes with a flat rate, and likewise you could have a progressive tax scheme with two brackets and 0 loopholes. The last major tax reform in 1986 was bipartisan as well.

A lot of Democrats think Bush did 9/11. A lot of Republicans think Obama is a secret Muslim. Who cares? These vague statements don't really have any relevance.
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 16:46:20
December 08 2012 16:32 GMT
#556
On December 08 2012 22:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2012 10:43 sam!zdat wrote:
not sure ayn rand was so much of an intellectual, either

literary genius and intellectual.

[image loading]

ask a couple of her disciples
like Nathaniel Blumenthal and Alan Greenspan
they are still alive and fairly easy to speak with informally.

she gave libertarians a meta-ethical foundation upon which they can base their views.

If you look outside of USA, Ayn Rand has basically been unknown. I will give you, that there is a cult around her in some spheres in USA, but influence outside of that is limited. As for Rand vs. Buckley, Buckley wins. Politically the big and internationally influencial intellectuals are Chomsky and Rowles if you want to go in that directon. Frogrubdowns excellent post also mentioned Nozick (Libertarian philosopher who denounced Rand) and there are also pretty widespread libertarian economy schools of thought. Ayn Rand is maybe among the first libertarian thinkers, but she is in no way close to the best, most influencial or most respected intellectally.
Repeat before me
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 17:29:00
December 08 2012 16:47 GMT
#557
lysander spooner is the quintessential american anarchist guy. upstanding fella.


rand is a bitter ex-soviet lady with a lot of time and no perspective. most charitably. her thoughts are jumbled and incoherent but that's a given.

in terms of positive influence i'd say the american pragmatist tradition is really great. at least they do a lot of useful actual social work. if you are talking about having a good vision for america, try john dewey.

buckley is a propagandist with no redeeming value.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 17:25:10
December 08 2012 17:24 GMT
#558
On December 09 2012 01:47 oneofthem wrote:
berkley is a propagandist with no redeeming value.


Surely Bishop Berkeley has some redeeming value.:p
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 17:39:15
December 08 2012 17:28 GMT
#559
oh fuck me i meant buckley rofl

berkeleyan realism pretty good imo
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-08 18:13:54
December 08 2012 18:05 GMT
#560
Because I've written rather exhaustively on the subject of why Ayn Rand and Objectivism are substantively bankrupt in terms of real world applicative propriety, I'll simply call upon the words of a man whom the label "genius" is far more fitting, though in the realm of literary and rhetorical skill, that label is rather fraught to begin with.

This odd little woman is attempting to give a moral sanction to greed and self interest, and to pull it off she must at times indulge in purest Orwellian newspeak of the “freedom is slavery” sort. What interests me most about her is not the absurdity of her “philosophy,” but the size of her audience (in my campaign for the House she was the one writer people knew and talked about). She has a great attraction for simple people who are puzzled by organized society, who object to paying taxes, who dislike the “welfare” state, who feel guilt at the thought of the suffering of others but who would like to harden their hearts. For them, she has an enticing prescription: altruism is the root of all evil, self-interest is the only good, and if you’re dumb or incompetent that’s your lookout.

She is fighting two battles: the first, against the idea of the State being anything more than a police force and a judiciary to restrain people from stealing each other’s money openly. She is in legitimate company here. There is a reactionary position which has many valid attractions, among them lean, sinewy, regular-guy Barry Goldwater. But it is Miss Rand’s second battle that is the moral one. She has declared war not only on Marx but on Christ. Now, although my own enthusiasm for the various systems evolved in the names of those two figures is limited, I doubt if even the most anti-Christian free-thinker would want to deny the ethical value of Christ in the Gospels. To reject that Christ is to embark on dangerous waters indeed. For to justify and extol human greed and egotism is to my mind not only immoral, but evil. For one thing, it is gratuitous to advise any human being to look out for himself. You can be sure that he will. It is far more difficult to persuade him to help his neighbor to build a dam or to defend a town or to give food he has accumulated to the victims of a famine. But since we must live together, dependent upon one another for many things and services, altruism is necessary to survival. To get people to do needed things is the perennial hard task of government, not to mention of religion and philosophy. That it is right to help someone less fortunate is an idea which ahs figured in most systems of conduct since the beginning of the race. We often fail. That predatory demon “I” is difficult to contain but until now we have all agreed that to help others is a right action. Now the dictionary definition of “moral” is: “concerned with the distinction between right and wrong” as in “moral law, the requirements to which right action must conform.” Though Miss Rand’s grasp of logic is uncertain, she does realize that to make even a modicum of sense she must change all the terms. Both Marx and Christ agree that in this life a right action is consideration for the welfare of others. In the one case, through a state which was to wither away, in the other through the private exercise of the moral sense. Miss Rand now tells us that what we have thought was right is really wrong. The lesson should have read: One for one and none for all.

Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” is nearly perfect in its immorality, which makes the size of her audience all the more ominous and symptomatic as we enter a curious new phase in our society. Moral values are in flux. The muddy depths are being stirred by new monsters and witches from the deep. Trolls walk the American night. Caesars are stirring in the Forum. There are storm warnings ahead. But to counter trolls and Caesars, we have such men as Lewis Mumford whose new book, The City in History, inspires. He traces the growth of communities from Neolithic to present times. He is wise. He is moral: that is, he favors right action and he believes it possible for us to make things better for us (not “me”!). He belongs to the currently unfashionable line of makers who believe that if something is wrong it can be made right, whether a faulty water main or a faulty idea. May he flourish!


Gore Vidal may not like New York Times' critic Orville Prescott, but he dislikes Ayn Rand's "philosophy" even more.

Additionally, Rand's "philosophy", Objectivism, is very poorly constructed and can be indicted on pretty much all fronts, though her epistemology and metaphysics are perhaps most glaringly lacking in expositive persuasive capacity. To put things in literary critical terms, Objectivism is the ultimate "tell, don't show" philosophy in that it relies heavily on a certain sort of emotional/intellectual solipsism that presupposes the validity of the individual observer's volition, a common trait amongst libertarians and this sort of thinking. If Objectivism gave potential flaw in individual perspective even a passing acknowledgement, it would literally fall apart at the seams as the lionized borders between the self and the group become less and less clear; in other words, Objectivism, and to a lesser extent the fiction of Ayn Rand, require as part of their admiration an acceptance of "the cult of the individual" as discretionary standard, when in fact the entirety of the proposal hinges on a proof of the "cult" itself as truth-bearing.

Edit: Like Frogrubdown amongst other have said, libertarians really need to back away from Rand and go to Nozick, he is oh so much harder to critique, though it certainly can be done
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
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