Absolutely, what a great series, another epic PvZ in there, must be the third or fourth I've seen in the last week that's gone well over the half an hour mark. + Show Spoiler +
Great job Mini, he's been playing well lately but I didn't expect him to get the all kill, He seems to have really harassment and I loved seeing the Dark Archon! A few times against Hero I thought he was out, especially when it looked like the Mutas were going to sack his main.
That must have been the first PvT I've seen on Lemon that didn't have Carriers too. Mini was quite greedy going for the early Nexus (something I didn't think was necessary on this map) so when JyJ took it out I didn't think he'd be able to come back. But he went 12 Nexus into 2 Gate and only took one gas, maybe JyJ was also expecting Carriers so didn't expect that number of Gateway units when he moved out?
I've not posted on here for years, wow. This bothers me that much to sign up again just to post it.
But I had to say something about that last game, Snow's control of Carriers CANNOT be the optimal micro. At one point at 9 carriers it looked like an a-move situation. If they keep doing the 'trick' to bring inceptors out, it leaves them vulnerable to the goliaths AA - it overkills units wasting inceptors - watch the game and tell me it wouldn't have been better just to a-move into the goliath ball from a cliff and move back the damaged Carrier (if they target it). This inceptor trick is actually worse than a-move in those situations.
There's no way picking off one at a time makes sense. I imagine myself in a noob game in that situation (we've all done it! and even with 16 goliaths i'd be worried about those carriers just moving straight through them. You want him to be able to try and target the carriers, it makes him stop taking out the inceptors.
He's bringing out EVERY inceptor to hit each item, that's a waste of potential damage and leaves them hanging in the air. They are supposed to go and get repaired automatically - if he keeps doing the trick they never go back automatically.
Also no air armour on a carrier build (GOLIATH ATTACK COUNTS AS 2!! imagine 1 air armour and 1 shield from Forge!!) ? And stuck around 130 supply? Before he lost his 3rd he could have just a-moved into the high ground (ignoring tanks all damage on goliaths). Sure he may have lost some carriers. Sometimes it's frustrating watching them try and pick around the edge. Watch the VOD when its out please tell me what you think, it looks totally wrong to me, i'm sure its a case of a pro doing the wrong thing.
Reminds me of another P situation where they NEVER engage the T ball head on anymore. But gives them time to get to 200/200. Felt like he was trying to keep the Carriers alive rather than bases. 1-1-1 Carriers would look imba.
^ It's never better to A move Carrier into a Goliath ball. They are slow and you can't retreat fast enough, and even if you do, next time they'll get killed instantly. I think you underestimate how fast Carriers die to Goliaths. Sure the manual target overkills Goliath, but on the other hand if you A move it becomes underkill.
Best case scenario you'll end up killing all the Goliaths but lose most of your Carriers, and the next wave of reinforcing Goliaths will kill you, and then you have nothing left but 2 or 3 new Carriers with no interceptors.
1-1-1 carriers makes no sense. Armor doesnt work until shield is gone. Shield would remove 2 damage out of 4, next upgrade it would remove 2 damage out of 8.
3-0-3 is the only sensible upgrades for the money seeing as carrier got base armor of 4 and 350 armor hp meanwhile shield is 150.
The correct way of microing carriers is to put your carriers in a line so they all have possibility to reach gols, you could stack em with a probe or whatever but that would just make them aim on same target. Put carriers in a line then a-move then move away and repeat.
You should only focus fire with carrier if you are facing upgraded armor, then it would make sense to slightly overkill. Attacking individual targets vs upgraded armor is suicide.
The shield is for inceptors and it will be 'free' because you can skip the other Forge upgrades when you intend to do a carrier build.. if you watch the VOD you'll see the problem for sure. The game was going to be decided before the end upgrades anyway. He has 7 carriers with 3 on the way at one point and needed to engage directly not pick at the edges overkilling each time.
Interceptors taking 2 less damage EVERY hit? how can that not be worth it? Considering the strategy relies on the retention of inceptors each engagement. Regardless of upgrade arguments there's no way you should bring all of them out and overkill every shot.
And of course i don't mean a-move no micro at all. Moving back and forward when targeted like normal micro and using high ground; please watch the VOD when it's available.
- Snow never once used SH micro in the game against Light, at least not against the goliaths. So I don't know what "interceptor trick" it is we're talking about.
- He picked out each goliath one by one with focus fire from his carriers, which I strongly consider the best approach in that situation. If you instead spread out the fire across several goliaths, you're just gonna bruise them and not kill them so fast, which means your interceptors get picked off even faster (due to goliaths taking significantly longer to get killed). That's a losing approach in a situation like the one in the game. Only when you have a very clear carrier superiority, then a simple attack move could come in handy. That was not the situation in the game.
- In my understanding the air armor upgrade isn't worth the investment. Upgraded goliaths deal far too much damage at once. But please do feel free to post evidence of interceptors staying alive meaningfully longer, that'd be interesting to see. +1 shield could perhaps have a use because it affects all protoss units and buildings. But it's not obvious to me that it helps (bare in mind it either takes time away from ground attack upgrades, which would be bad, or it requires a second forge to be built, which costs 150 extra minerals), so from those who consider not getting the shield upgrade a clear mistake, I'd have to see evidence for that as well.
On September 03 2021 05:05 NotoriousSCV wrote: The shield is for inceptors and it will be 'free' because you can skip the other Forge upgrades when you intend to do a carrier build.. if you watch the VOD you'll see the problem for sure. The game was going to be decided before the end upgrades anyway. He has 7 carriers with 3 on the way at one point and needed to engage directly not pick at the edges overkilling each time.
Interceptors taking 2 less damage EVERY hit? how can that not be worth it? Considering the strategy relies on the retention of inceptors each engagement. Regardless of upgrade arguments there's no way you should bring all of them out and overkill every shot.
And of course i don't mean a-move no micro at all. Moving back and forward when targeted like normal micro and using high ground; please watch the VOD when it's available.
You are missing a big point here, Goliaths air attack is explosive, and explosive (and concussive) damage does full damage to Shields. Shield will be gone after the second shot no matter if you upgrade shield or not.
gol +0, hit 1 20/40, hit 2 0/40
gol +1, hit 1 16/40, hit 2 0/40
gol +1, shield +1, hit 1 18/40, hit 2 0/40
gol +1, shield +2, hit 1 20/40, hit 2 0/40
gol +1, shield +3, hit 1 22/40, hit 2 4/40, now this case will never happen because gols will have +2 way ahead of your +3 shield in all cases of a game.
Good series, the first game ZerO vs Mini had a mad build by Mini, skipped Stargate for fast Zealots, took out the Spire and then went 2 Stargate + DT, really fun game. The next game was really fun too. Unreal play from Snow at the end, didn't think he had some of those games.
Yes great series by Mini, love seeing his PvZ, it's really nice to watch as a P player and not feel vulnerable in the matchup, it's such a change from normal. Mini took out the Hydra den twice as well. And the interesting cannon rush! Also - +2 armour ups before attack.
About the interceptors thing, it's just a feel really watching that as a P player you knew he had no chance from the first engagement; the shields thing was just an idea to help out that.
Yeah Mini is clearly top3 right now, at least for me. His play is flawless and very entertaining also. There is no zerg who can challenge him. Unless Rain comes back from the ashes, only SnOw can mayyyyy be wins a p:p series against him. That leaves only Light and (Rush?) to challenge the guy right now.
Unfortunately for mini he really seems to be the heir apparent to bisu. His Pvz is sublime, Pvp solid, but his Pvt is meh.. While he has some creative early builds, I think his overall skill in the match-up isn't too strong and I'd strongly favor light or rush against him (in a series).
On September 16 2021 00:59 Jiancan wrote: Don't we have such a page for Season 3 anymore? KCM/Race Survival/2021/2 difficult for me now to know when are the matches.
On September 16 2021 00:59 Jiancan wrote: Don't we have such a page for Season 3 anymore? KCM/Race Survival/2021/2 difficult for me now to know when are the matches.
On September 16 2021 00:59 Jiancan wrote: Don't we have such a page for Season 3 anymore? KCM/Race Survival/2021/2 difficult for me now to know when are the matches.
Make one
Where to get the Information?
Just check https://www.afreecatv.com/cjfals28/posts for time&lineup. Today Week#5 9/16/2021 Zerg: Soulkey Hero Miso Terran: Light JyJ Sorry Protoss: Snow Best Huro
if hero played against Rush the way he played against sharp he would have died. That being said, the things he does with lings are borderline unbelievable and he smashed the crap out of Rush
Never understood why no one links to the actual stream on TL. Hope someone adds this to the live events tab, KCM is always missing when it's live which sucks since this is probably the most exciting BW event there is.
I don't understand why people go for cannon rushes against people they are better than. For any two pro players, isn't a cannon rush AT BEST at 60% chance of winning?
EPT
KCM/Race Survival/2021/3
! Right now streaming on youtube! if anyone wants I put the link 
! At least I saw Best vs Shine 
