On April 14 2006 09:01 HnR)hT wrote: 3/4. I thought Kingdom was due to finally beat Reach, since Reach has been in what quite possibly is the worst form of his career since sky2001 for the past half a year or so.
sorry but are you on crack? reach was like on the biggest pvp winning streak in the history of tv starcraft untill he lost to stork =/ his pvp is on fireeee 4/4
Those are all from Proleague. Reach has been playing like shit, in general, and hTs vote was very justified for that reason...well, as justified as a vote against Reach can be, which isn't very!
Those were not all from Proleague. Reach's PvP winning streak was from all the televised PvPs he played, from OSL, MSL, Proleague, even invitation events such as KT-KTF, BWII, etc. Saying his PvP streak is only from Proleague is very, very wrong. Reach has played like shit pvz wise, and has recently shown some weakness pvt, but his pvp has never been anything but top notch.
Well, Reach's important PvP games for the past year were generally against "lower level" toss players such as Rainbow (MSL) and Rock (dual tournament). I also recall him losing to Ra in some invitation event that featured KTF players around 1/2 - 1 year ago. Incidentally don't forget that he lost to Rage in KT-KTF. As a matter of fact, I considered his PvP the best after KT-KTF and for quite a while after that, but after SO1 I simply haven't seen the evidence that his PvP has been holding up while his other 2 matchups took such a drastic nosedive. On the other hand, I remember Kingdom's win over Ra in one of those proleague "finals" (I never really understood the convoluted system); and, more importantly, Kingdom has been absent from MSL for some time so I figured his determination would be greater than Reach's.
I simply haven't seen the evidence that his PvP has been holding up
How exactly in the world is beating players such as Rock, Anytime, Stork, Nal_rA, Kingdom, IntotheRainbow, and numerous others consistently in OGN, MBC, Proleague, Invitation events, over numerous matches, with several players beating them on multiple occasions, and at the same time gathered one single pvp loss translate to no evidence that his PvP been holding up?
On the other hand, I remember Kingdom's win over Ra in one of those proleague "finals" (I never really understood the convoluted system)
ONE SINGLE PVP BO1 win in an entire year. Wow. Did you seem to just forget rA beating Kingdom back in a bo3 during starleague? One single pvp win in an entire year, losing back to that same player in a bo3, losing to Anytime, losing to Reach in multiple occasions, couldn't even beat the chinese rookie LX in neither a bo1 or a bo5, that sure is a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise.
Actually I really don't remember Ra beating Kingdom in a BO3, unless you're referring to some invitational event in which case it doesn't count as much. Kingdom's win that I brought up was an important game though, as judging from the interviews the players on both teams treated the proleage as more important that even the starleagues. It was possibly the most important single game that Kingdom and Ra played against each other and Kingdom won soundly.
just watched the vods... kingdom won over ra that time cause ra was transporting his units to lowerground by shuttle. he went up his ramp and that was that. I wouldn't put to much faith in kingdoms pvp judging from that game. About the game vs reach, he made a big mistake in his base, gathering his units at his ramp for reach to shot down with reaver. He lost the game there. Rainbow playied like a noob, thinking that he had a sure win, going all archons to walk over ipx. It was written all over his face.
Actually, I think Rainbow going all archon was his strategy of trying to exploit the new feature of double gas expos on 815. The game was pretty one sided after IPX broke the cannon contain, but that game had quite a few good moves in it that kept it entertaining (Rainbow doing amazing reaver micro to kill off hydras, only to lose both reavers to ONE FUCKING SUNKEN!)
On April 16 2006 13:02 Purind wrote: Actually, I think Rainbow going all archon was his strategy of trying to exploit the new feature of double gas expos on 815. The game was pretty one sided after IPX broke the cannon contain, but that game had quite a few good moves in it that kept it entertaining (Rainbow doing amazing reaver micro to kill off hydras, only to lose both reavers to ONE FUCKING SUNKEN!)
yea, you could see the anger in rainbows face after those reavers died =P
On April 15 2006 22:32 Purind wrote: The only thing that I could think of is that gorush wanted to power drones so he built colonies. I too thought it was a bad idea watching the game. But let's face it, Chojja's ZvZ sense is really good
yea chojja had really nice timing with those first few lings. i think gorush built the creeps since he built 1 drone too many after the pool popped. chojja built 6 lings immediately while he did not. i might be wrong though, dont remember the game that well.
Well no one can speak for GoRush. But I think he basically just didnt wanna get in a ling war with Chojja. He may have also gone lair before speed, and thinking chojja was gonna get speed and pour on lings put up a sunken in hopes that he would play a drone/muta game with gorush having the lair speed advantage.
He actually had the same number of lings as chojja(2, and then 4) at his nat before chojja even got there. So its just a curious thing really. And odd to see a high level Z like him play that way.
I think beyond his opening game mistakes, Chojja really just used some awesome tactical prowess and tore him open with that little ling/muta run at his main. ;]
yea chojja played pretty awesome. gorush looked like he was scared. i cried when those lings went up his ramp, it happens to me so often =P
You can't just go by Ws and Ls either tfeign, for instance, that win over Stork that you included in your list was a crap game. Reach got outplayed and won out on some lucky Reaver and positioning issues. Stork worked him the whole game and blew it.
I'm the #1 Reach fan of the world here man, I'm just saying that he's been playing poorly and though he's won lots of PvP I'd never put it past him to lose to someone hungrier than him. Just a thought, you don't need to be so forceful. These are opinions after all.
Though he does have a point in this case, comparing Reach PvP with Kingdom's PvP. And in this case, I don't know how valid it is to mention Reach's current form, as Kingdom's form is not exactly top of the line at the moment. No matter what you say in defense of Kingdom, Reach was the obvious favourite going into this game
But kingdom always has a decent chance PvP no matter who he plays. So... it was however you wanted to bet. I hate how Tfeign can take a dead thread and ramble it on for pages and pages of usually pretty bad analysis.
Purind is right. Kingdom isnt really in any sort of great form, at least Reach managed to have a good PvP streak.
My opinion is that Kingdom just tried to play some chancey expo strategy while feigning agression and got called on it when Reach at some point realized he simply had more units than Kingdom. His last minute drop tactics were also somewhat barely held off by reach so his hope of making the game close was crushed.
On April 16 2006 23:19 Purind wrote: Though he does have a point in this case, comparing Reach PvP with Kingdom's PvP. And in this case, I don't know how valid it is to mention Reach's current form, as Kingdom's form is not exactly top of the line at the moment. No matter what you say in defense of Kingdom, Reach was the obvious favourite going into this game
Very good point. I'm just saying that from my perspective this was just a mono between 2 skilled players that haven't had any chops in a while, kingdom for a longer while. I don't see either as a clear fav, but maybe that's just my ignorance.
EPT
