On December 18 2011 15:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong wasn't really a bonjwa, but he was the overdog to Flash's underdog and inevitable rise so I guess he deserves some distinction.
Yes he was. It's just that at the later stages of the game, turnover rates at the highest have increased, so people like you pretend not to recognise him.
He never won a lot of titles in a short time frame and was never regarded by the community at large as a clearly distant #1 the same way other players were. He was to Jaedong fans, sure, but Flash was to everyone.
You really should revise your BW timeline... you're simply wrong. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
On the other hand, infested CC lol!
Okay, whatever. Jaedong wasn't Savior or Flash level at any point in his career and if you disagree then you probably didn't watch Savior.
You just can't admit that you're wrong, can you? 5 titles in 26 months, insane winrates during that time not good enough for you? Or is it the fact that Flash won a title during Jaedong's reign? Well, guess what, Savior didn't win everything either. It just so happens that Flash started emerging during that period of time, which is exactly the high turnover rates that I mentioned.
The bonjwa definition is completely arbitrary anyway, don't worry about it. Nada, Boxer and Oov were shoehorned into it and Savior wasn't even nearly as dominant as Flash was during 2010. So screw the definition itself.
Amen. Jaedong's achievements are unparalleled, who gives a shit if he meets some totally arbitrary criteria of "bonjwa"?. He's got 5 golds, 4 silvers, and countless semi-final appearances. He's taken his team to two proleague grand finals. He managed to have the highest winrate ever of any matchup in the most volatile matchup ever. He managed to make it to the finals of every MSL in 2010 despite some horrible map pools in which every other zerg was getting crushed by terrans. He has arguably the strongest mindset of any progamer. No other player has managed to play at such a high level for as long as he has. Even despite all those disappointing defeats and missed opportunities in starleagues in 2010 and 2011, not making the playoffs two seasons in a row due to an underperforming team, and his team ultimately getting disbanded, he still maintains an unwavering determination to be the best and continues to be one of the best players when many others in his position would've entered a slump that would've lasted the rest of their careers.
It's unfortunate (and incredibly unfair) that those three Bo5 losses to Flash in 2010 ultimately give people such vastly different opinions of the two players, that Jaedong is "merely a great player" while Flash is some mystical superhuman transcendent being, when you consider that if he even won one of those Bo5s, they would be seen as roughly equal.
And Jaedong was a clear #1 in 2009. People can talk about how he didn't have some "aura" of total dominance or whatever, but guess what, the same can be said about Flash in 2010. After Flash's disappointing loss to Effort in the Korean Air OSL, Jaedong was actually the favorite to win the Hana Daetoo MSL. In both the NATE MSL and Bigfile MSL, the predictions for the winner were pretty much split 50:50 between Jaedong and Flash. I'd say it was only for the Korean Air S2 finals that Flash was a more clear favorite. If Flash was supposedly the distant #1 and had this mystical bonjwa aura, he should have been expected to dominate every single opponent ezpz, including Jaedong, but that obviously wasn't the case.
Just let it rest. Flash was crowned Bonjwa, Jaedong was not. Period. It's a fact that even the most die-hard Jaedong fan has to accept at some point. Whether you care about it or how much weight you give to the title is an entirely different matter.
You may call it arbitrary, but imho that is exactly what makes it so special. You can't exactly tell what you have to do or how much you have to win to earn it. At some, dare I call it, "magical" moment it just happens.
lol why are you guys discussing such a boring and so ancient out of date term like bonjwa ? even flash is not bonjwa cause bonjwas was regarded to 4 people only in ancient broodwar history btw flash and jaedong are much more than that and if that term still existed they would both get it but lets let it rest its history and its a fact most people nostalgic to the old ways cant accept
On December 18 2011 15:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong wasn't really a bonjwa, but he was the overdog to Flash's underdog and inevitable rise so I guess he deserves some distinction.
Yes he was. It's just that at the later stages of the game, turnover rates at the highest have increased, so people like you pretend not to recognise him.
He never won a lot of titles in a short time frame and was never regarded by the community at large as a clearly distant #1 the same way other players were. He was to Jaedong fans, sure, but Flash was to everyone.
You really should revise your BW timeline... you're simply wrong. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
On the other hand, infested CC lol!
Okay, whatever. Jaedong wasn't Savior or Flash level at any point in his career and if you disagree then you probably didn't watch Savior.
You just can't admit that you're wrong, can you? 5 titles in 26 months, insane winrates during that time not good enough for you? Or is it the fact that Flash won a title during Jaedong's reign? Well, guess what, Savior didn't win everything either. It just so happens that Flash started emerging during that period of time, which is exactly the high turnover rates that I mentioned.
The bonjwa definition is completely arbitrary anyway, don't worry about it. Nada, Boxer and Oov were shoehorned into it and Savior wasn't even nearly as dominant as Flash was during 2010. So screw the definition itself.
Amen. Jaedong's achievements are unparalleled, who gives a shit if he meets some totally arbitrary criteria of "bonjwa"?. He's got 5 golds, 4 silvers, and countless semi-final appearances. He's taken his team to two proleague grand finals. He managed to have the highest winrate ever of any matchup in the most volatile matchup ever. He managed to make it to the finals of every MSL in 2010 despite some horrible map pools in which every other zerg was getting crushed by terrans. He has arguably the strongest mindset of any progamer. No other player has managed to play at such a high level for as long as he has. Even despite all those disappointing defeats and missed opportunities in starleagues in 2010 and 2011, not making the playoffs two seasons in a row due to an underperforming team, and his team ultimately getting disbanded, he still maintains an unwavering determination to be the best and continues to be one of the best players when many others in his position would've entered a slump that would've lasted the rest of their careers.
It's unfortunate (and incredibly unfair) that those three Bo5 losses to Flash in 2010 ultimately give people such vastly different opinions of the two players, that Jaedong is "merely a great player" while Flash is some mystical superhuman transcendent being, when you consider that if he even won one of those Bo5s, they would be seen as roughly equal.
And Jaedong was a clear #1 in 2009. People can talk about how he didn't have some "aura" of total dominance or whatever, but guess what, the same can be said about Flash in 2010. After Flash's disappointing loss to Effort in the Korean Air OSL, Jaedong was actually the favorite to win the Hana Daetoo MSL. In both the NATE MSL and Bigfile MSL, the predictions for the winner were pretty much split 50:50 between Jaedong and Flash. I'd say it was only for the Korean Air S2 finals that Flash was a more clear favorite. If Flash was supposedly the distant #1 and had this mystical bonjwa aura, he should have been expected to dominate every single opponent ezpz, including Jaedong, but that obviously wasn't the case.
>>If Flash was supposedly the distant #1 and had this mystical bonjwa aura, he should have been expected to dominate every single opponent ezpz, including Jaedong, but that obviously wasn't the case.<< In 2010, I think that was the case.
On December 19 2011 06:09 Navi wrote: 2008-2009 were JD's years, no question 2010-2011 were Flash's years, no question i don't know why everyone is getting on each other's necks about this
Somebody forgot about power outage msl? ... Just kidding! I'm not sure if this is off topic but: go kt! Hope they found back to their champion ship sell selfs. Maybe with a perfective win next time?
On December 18 2011 15:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong wasn't really a bonjwa, but he was the overdog to Flash's underdog and inevitable rise so I guess he deserves some distinction.
Yes he was. It's just that at the later stages of the game, turnover rates at the highest have increased, so people like you pretend not to recognise him.
He never won a lot of titles in a short time frame and was never regarded by the community at large as a clearly distant #1 the same way other players were. He was to Jaedong fans, sure, but Flash was to everyone.
You really should revise your BW timeline... you're simply wrong. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
On the other hand, infested CC lol!
Okay, whatever. Jaedong wasn't Savior or Flash level at any point in his career and if you disagree then you probably didn't watch Savior.
You just can't admit that you're wrong, can you? 5 titles in 26 months, insane winrates during that time not good enough for you? Or is it the fact that Flash won a title during Jaedong's reign? Well, guess what, Savior didn't win everything either. It just so happens that Flash started emerging during that period of time, which is exactly the high turnover rates that I mentioned.
The bonjwa definition is completely arbitrary anyway, don't worry about it. Nada, Boxer and Oov were shoehorned into it and Savior wasn't even nearly as dominant as Flash was during 2010. So screw the definition itself.
Amen. Jaedong's achievements are unparalleled, who gives a shit if he meets some totally arbitrary criteria of "bonjwa"?. He's got 5 golds, 4 silvers, and countless semi-final appearances. He's taken his team to two proleague grand finals. He managed to have the highest winrate ever of any matchup in the most volatile matchup ever. He managed to make it to the finals of every MSL in 2010 despite some horrible map pools in which every other zerg was getting crushed by terrans. He has arguably the strongest mindset of any progamer. No other player has managed to play at such a high level for as long as he has. Even despite all those disappointing defeats and missed opportunities in starleagues in 2010 and 2011, not making the playoffs two seasons in a row due to an underperforming team, and his team ultimately getting disbanded, he still maintains an unwavering determination to be the best and continues to be one of the best players when many others in his position would've entered a slump that would've lasted the rest of their careers.
It's unfortunate (and incredibly unfair) that those three Bo5 losses to Flash in 2010 ultimately give people such vastly different opinions of the two players, that Jaedong is "merely a great player" while Flash is some mystical superhuman transcendent being, when you consider that if he even won one of those Bo5s, they would be seen as roughly equal.
And Jaedong was a clear #1 in 2009. People can talk about how he didn't have some "aura" of total dominance or whatever, but guess what, the same can be said about Flash in 2010. After Flash's disappointing loss to Effort in the Korean Air OSL, Jaedong was actually the favorite to win the Hana Daetoo MSL. In both the NATE MSL and Bigfile MSL, the predictions for the winner were pretty much split 50:50 between Jaedong and Flash. I'd say it was only for the Korean Air S2 finals that Flash was a more clear favorite. If Flash was supposedly the distant #1 and had this mystical bonjwa aura, he should have been expected to dominate every single opponent ezpz, including Jaedong, but that obviously wasn't the case.
Just let it rest. Flash was crowned Bonjwa, Jaedong was not. Period. It's a fact that even the most die-hard Jaedong fan has to accept at some point. Whether you care about it or how much weight you give to the title is an entirely different matter.
You may call it arbitrary, but imho that is exactly what makes it so special. You can't exactly tell what you have to do or how much you have to win to earn it. At some, dare I call it, "magical" moment it just happens.
lol why are you guys discussing such a boring and so ancient out of date term like bonjwa ? even flash is not bonjwa cause bonjwas was regarded to 4 people only in ancient broodwar history btw flash and jaedong are much more than that and if that term still existed they would both get it but lets let it rest its history and its a fact most people nostalgic to the old ways cant accept
what. We've been using this term for someone who is super-dominating in his games and gets chain/consecutive golds (or just a lot) in MSL/OSL. The word has nothing to do with 'the history of brood war'
On December 19 2011 03:33 zeehar wrote: ok, i'm only just starting to look through this thread, but some idiot said flash was ruining esports? and used jangbi as an excuse? everyone in korea will root for the protoss in a match that they don't have any vested interest in. it's just the way it goes.
they love the legend of the fall (which had not been fulfilled for three seasons), jangbi was a sympathetic underdog who was only just starting to regain his form and was doing a cinderella run. only flash fans would root for flash in that match.
it was getting pretty annoying that he brought up the dumb issue , seriously why would a dominating player will not bring in more spectators ? It's like saying hey during tiger wood prime , him winning another tournament will kill the golf scene , it didn't happen right ? Well currently his named although tainted by his own doing , people still want to watch tiger wood...
Besides that to think legatus lanius the guy who actually made that comment was one of us KT FANS, now samsung khan -__- . Makes me really sad.
Ah, it was such a good night. It was my first live night in ages. Current work and timezone makes it hard for me to watch games live. But I'm so happy that the one night I did stay up late KT won
And now I'm going back to Europe for couple of weeks so it should be easier to watch games I'm so BW starved that I'll be probably watching all games
Finally, as a kt and flash fan I can cheer for something this season. Kt fiiighting! Figure it out coach and get back into it! Sorry cj fans but I guess easy foes are easy to 3-0 and 3-1 but against the returning champs not so ezpz.
Curses to effort not winning a match though for my fpl league. Can't wait to watch these vods...
On December 19 2011 14:51 Kazeyonoma wrote: Finally, as a kt and flash fan I can cheer for something this season. Kt fiiighting! Figure it out coach and get back into it! Sorry cj fans but I guess easy foes are easy to 3-0 and 3-1 but against the returning champs not so ezpz.
Curses to effort not winning a match though for my fpl league. Can't wait to watch these vods...
On December 19 2011 03:33 zeehar wrote: ok, i'm only just starting to look through this thread, but some idiot said flash was ruining esports? and used jangbi as an excuse? everyone in korea will root for the protoss in a match that they don't have any vested interest in. it's just the way it goes.
they love the legend of the fall (which had not been fulfilled for three seasons), jangbi was a sympathetic underdog who was only just starting to regain his form and was doing a cinderella run. only flash fans would root for flash in that match.
it was getting pretty annoying that he brought up the dumb issue , seriously why would a dominating player will not bring in more spectators ? It's like saying hey during tiger wood prime , him winning another tournament will kill the golf scene , it didn't happen right ? Well currently his named although tainted by his own doing , people still want to watch tiger wood...
Besides that to think legatus lanius the guy who actually made that comment was one of us KT FANS, now samsung khan -__- . Makes me really sad.
i was never a kt fan, i just wore the banner because i liked the new icon. now i like the look of the khan banner, although it does help that stork and jangbi are infinitely more interesting than anybody on kt that didnt have chin surgery. dont group me with those people that blindly follow a team of players, i like watching players of all teams
anyways, it certainly was ruining esports for me. i think we can all agree that jin air was a change for the better for everyone
EPT
