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[SPL] STX SouL v Woongjin Stars - Page 51

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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MuK_x
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
743 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 15:31:14
December 07 2011 15:29 GMT
#1001
STX coach is high or something? He is know Woongjin will send Light as last player but still sending zerg against him?

WTF STX Coach? seriously WTF?

I bet mustaju can done better job than currently STX coach.
IdrA "TT1 actually fucked up and didn't see the hatchery,so im at a really big advantage right now,assuming he reacts intelligently which is not something you should assume with TT1"
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
December 07 2011 15:33 GMT
#1002
Shuttle lost FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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At least it was 2-3 and not 0-3
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 15:50:12
December 07 2011 15:34 GMT
#1003
On December 07 2011 21:20 Navi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2011 20:35 rauk wrote:
On December 07 2011 19:07 L_Master wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:59 KamMoye wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:25 L_Master wrote:
ZerO is not on the same level as Soulkey. When he plays good he is at least as good (tbh better), than SK but this is far too rare.

nearly 60% ZvT since '09. Soulkey? 51%.

it'd take a whole lot of cherry picking to even out those percentages. and no matter how you slice it SK isn't on another level than Zero.


That cherry picking is there. Over 2/3 of SK's ZvT's are against terrans with a 60%+ career vT. Not sure why but he has faced the absolute cream of the crop when it comes to terrans.

Then you have to consider that SK is far superior in ZvZ, and better in ZvP. He is also much more consistent than ZerO. On one of his good days, ZerO is as good as anyone in the game, but he has too many days where he is mediocre or downright awful. Without this consistency I just can't place someone as a top player. There is an aura of consistency and invincibility needed to be considered great. You don't get this with ZerO because you never know which ZerO will show up.

Is SK on another level from ZerO? Hell no. Is he the better all around player? Definitely.

More than anything it's ZerO's inconsistency that holds him back.

On December 07 2011 19:03 KamMoye wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:42 L_Master wrote:Probably just a case of small sample size.


FYP

too many SC fans underrate the randomness of the game. we're talking about a sport where winning 55% of your games makes you a top 15 player.


It could VERY well be that. I wasn't paying attention to BW heavily yet at that point in time so I don't really know if there was an obvious drop off in the quality of his play that lead to those results or not.


it's pretty obvious that zero is a better zvt player. just look at zero and SK vs flash; SK is 0-4, zero is 4-7 including osl/msl, 3-1 with only proleague. when zero beats guys like flash, fantasy, sea, hwasin, etc, he makes it look easy. bogus is pretty good, and we had an epic zvt, but he made SK work for every single inch he got. when we look at zero vs flash on benzene, zero is in control of every single thing on the map, and crushed flash's big mech push with ease.

not to downplay bogus since he's certainly been stx's ace for the last few rounds of PL, but when SK looks shaky against someone who's merely "good" versus zero dominating god young ho, i think it's pretty clear cut who has the stronger zvt.


His point being that he doesn't judge by peak performance only, but also by stability and consistency.
Sure, zero dominated flash in that game. but look at the stat that you quoted: 4-7. It's flash, granted, but you make it sound like zero's "stronger zvt" is consistently at that level. Any avid BW viewer will tell you, no, it isn't.

If we were judging by peak performances, TBLS, fantasy, zero, effort, calm, and a few notable others would be up there in the S-class. However, the reason TBLS have been put in a class of their own for a long time is that they have had relevant stability and high standard of performance. Fantasy, Calm, and Zero emphasize this difference; with preparation they are capable of similar feats but do not stick to that standard.


Stork? STABILITY?! Are you provoking us? Since when Stork outclases Fantasy/Zero/Effort with his performance? As I see his time gone in 2009. TBLS is kinda wishfull thinking ATM.
Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
December 07 2011 15:39 GMT
#1004
On December 07 2011 18:20 konadora wrote:
lol light's vz

arguably 2nd or 3rd best TvZer in the world


If we go by ELO and the skill progression across eras, Light actually has the second best TvZ in history, and arguably the third best "vZ" overall behind Flash and Bisu. Although, I'd still put JD's ZvZ above his as well.
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
December 07 2011 15:39 GMT
#1005
On December 07 2011 23:40 Zona wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2011 23:18 jpak wrote:
Another little funny fact about this match: (Z)GoRush was the OBSERVER!!

Source:DES. Gonna check the VODs later to see what the commentators were saying about his performance.

Reminder: Ace vs T8 was observed by (T)TheMarine

That's sweet. But the commentators actually critique the observers during the match?


Only with those two because the commentators like to poke fun at each other.

The real observer is currently preparing for WCG.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4504 Posts
December 07 2011 15:41 GMT
#1006
On December 08 2011 00:29 MuK_x wrote:
STX coach is high or something? He is know Woongjin will send Light as last player but still sending zerg against him?

WTF STX Coach? seriously WTF?

I bet mustaju can done better job than currently STX coach.

Honestly? No. I expected Light to come out on Ground ZerO or Chain Reaction. I also think that the lineups are pretty much predetermined, and hyvaa at 5th makes sense. Why?
a) In a bo5 format, you want your heavy hitters to play early to prevent a 3-0. Light is one of the strongest players if not the strongest player on Woongjin against a team with a weak Protoss lineup.
b) if you rely heavily on your Zergs, you can lose unexpectedly to a BO loss in ZvZ. Hence you should try to play them on maps that are less likely to get sniped.
It would only make sense that Woongjin sent out their weaker players on Sniper Ridge, and I would have expected Shy or Free on that map, making Hyvaa with his pretty darn good ZvP the best choice.
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 07 2011 15:56 GMT
#1007
The lineups are predetermined before the actual games start. They submit it to the refs, so they cannot change it on the fly. -.-
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3613 Posts
December 07 2011 16:13 GMT
#1008
On December 08 2011 00:56 StarStruck wrote:
The lineups are predetermined before the actual games start. They submit it to the refs, so they cannot change it on the fly. -.-


Can we get a source one way or the other? You're saying this, Ideas has said they're not predetermined... now I'm just confused.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Hyde
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia14568 Posts
December 07 2011 16:18 GMT
#1009
On December 08 2011 00:56 StarStruck wrote:
The lineups are predetermined before the actual games start. They submit it to the refs, so they cannot change it on the fly. -.-

I was under the impression they can change it on the fly, they submit which player they want to play before the set begins. (It's predetermined in the sense that the coach knows which player he'd like to send out on which map, so he has a line up in mind.)
Because when you left, Brood War was all spotlights and titans. Now, with the death of the big leagues, Brood War has moved to the basements and carparks. Now, Brood War is unlicensed brawls, lost teeth, and bloody fights for fistfulls of money - SirJolt
sinistral
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore859 Posts
December 07 2011 16:32 GMT
#1010
It's likely STX is doing something similar to ACE. Players vote which map they wants to play, and the lucky guy gets to play in the televised match. More time is dedicated to prepare playing a single map compared to 2 or more.

hyvaa's probably more prepared playing on that last map compared to the rest of his teammates, even if the opponent is a TvZ monster.
(´・ω・`)
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
December 07 2011 16:57 GMT
#1011
How was Zer0 vs Calm game? I don't have access to the vods now and want to know how Zer0 lost.
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4504 Posts
December 07 2011 17:02 GMT
#1012
On December 08 2011 01:57 amazingxkcd wrote:
How was Zer0 vs Calm game? I don't have access to the vods now and want to know how Zer0 lost.

BO loss.
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
KamMoye
Profile Joined December 2010
United States721 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 18:43:01
December 07 2011 18:39 GMT
#1013
On December 07 2011 19:07 L_Master wrote:

That cherry picking is there. Over 2/3 of SK's ZvT's are against terrans with a 60%+ career vT. Not sure why but he has faced the absolute cream of the crop when it comes to terrans.


SK's played 54 matches v Terran.

The Terran's he's faced with a 60% win-rate:

BaBy x1
Sea x1
Light x2
Flash x4
Leta x7

That's 15 of his 54 matches, which isn't anywhere near two-thirds. What the heck? Why are you repeating something ad nauseam without even bothering to check it? That makes it sound like you have an agenda.

He went 2-5 v Leta, 0-4 v Flash, 0-2 v Light, 1-0 v Sea, 0-1 v Baby. Three wins, 12 losses. Dump those results and he's 25-15, giving him a 62.5% winning percentage. That took a whole lot of cherry-picking to get us there, though -- a 13% winning percentage against players who average out to, off my head, about a 63-64% win-rate in the matchup means SK lost significantly more often than you would expect him to. Small sample size, sure, but maybe he's just outclassed versus the best Terrans.

Is Zero?

He's faced those guys 28 times since January 1, 2009. (Arbitrary cut-off point on my point. -shrugs-) He's won 11 times and lost 17 times. That's a poor 39.2% win-rate, which, although far from ideal, is still three times better than Soulkey's win-rate against the same elite Terrans.

Is SK on another level from ZerO? Hell no. Is he the better all around player? Definitely.


I agree, but it's close. Zero has won 200 games, maintaining a win-rate close to 55%. There's a lot to be said for sample size and longevity. Right now Soulkey may be the slightly better Z, but even that's arguable and not "definite." In the last "season" (starting from October 1, 2010, about the beginning of last year's Proleague, 'til now) Zero's played 112 games with a 58% win-rate. SK's played 89 games with a 59.5% percent win-rate. Slight advantage to Zero there.

More than anything it's ZerO's inconsistency that holds him back.


You're overblowing it. Almost everyone in StarCraft is inconsistent. Bisu was far off his established norms for a year. Then he was far above his established norms for a year. Has ZerO really displayed more inconsistency than that relative to his established norms in the past two seasons? Kal was Protoss of the Year two years ago; he blew chunks last year. That's just the way the game goes.

Neo.G_SoulKey has had five losing streaks of at least three games (longest losing streak: four). ZerO has had three (longest losing streak: four) while playing 23 more games in that span. Your perception is biased. I see little proof to suggest ZerO is significantly more inconsistent than any other top pro.
garlicface
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada4196 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 18:43:54
December 07 2011 18:41 GMT
#1014
God damn I will never survive if I have Woogjin players on my anti. At least it's only Free, but still. Dem points man.

Edit: Wait, do players not earn points for simply being on a winning team anymore?
#TeamBuLba
gen.Sun
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States539 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 18:53:23
December 07 2011 18:52 GMT
#1015
On December 08 2011 00:34 hitthat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2011 21:20 Navi wrote:
On December 07 2011 20:35 rauk wrote:
On December 07 2011 19:07 L_Master wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:59 KamMoye wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:25 L_Master wrote:
ZerO is not on the same level as Soulkey. When he plays good he is at least as good (tbh better), than SK but this is far too rare.

nearly 60% ZvT since '09. Soulkey? 51%.

it'd take a whole lot of cherry picking to even out those percentages. and no matter how you slice it SK isn't on another level than Zero.


That cherry picking is there. Over 2/3 of SK's ZvT's are against terrans with a 60%+ career vT. Not sure why but he has faced the absolute cream of the crop when it comes to terrans.

Then you have to consider that SK is far superior in ZvZ, and better in ZvP. He is also much more consistent than ZerO. On one of his good days, ZerO is as good as anyone in the game, but he has too many days where he is mediocre or downright awful. Without this consistency I just can't place someone as a top player. There is an aura of consistency and invincibility needed to be considered great. You don't get this with ZerO because you never know which ZerO will show up.

Is SK on another level from ZerO? Hell no. Is he the better all around player? Definitely.

More than anything it's ZerO's inconsistency that holds him back.

On December 07 2011 19:03 KamMoye wrote:
On December 07 2011 18:42 L_Master wrote:Probably just a case of small sample size.


FYP

too many SC fans underrate the randomness of the game. we're talking about a sport where winning 55% of your games makes you a top 15 player.


It could VERY well be that. I wasn't paying attention to BW heavily yet at that point in time so I don't really know if there was an obvious drop off in the quality of his play that lead to those results or not.


it's pretty obvious that zero is a better zvt player. just look at zero and SK vs flash; SK is 0-4, zero is 4-7 including osl/msl, 3-1 with only proleague. when zero beats guys like flash, fantasy, sea, hwasin, etc, he makes it look easy. bogus is pretty good, and we had an epic zvt, but he made SK work for every single inch he got. when we look at zero vs flash on benzene, zero is in control of every single thing on the map, and crushed flash's big mech push with ease.

not to downplay bogus since he's certainly been stx's ace for the last few rounds of PL, but when SK looks shaky against someone who's merely "good" versus zero dominating god young ho, i think it's pretty clear cut who has the stronger zvt.


His point being that he doesn't judge by peak performance only, but also by stability and consistency.
Sure, zero dominated flash in that game. but look at the stat that you quoted: 4-7. It's flash, granted, but you make it sound like zero's "stronger zvt" is consistently at that level. Any avid BW viewer will tell you, no, it isn't.

If we were judging by peak performances, TBLS, fantasy, zero, effort, calm, and a few notable others would be up there in the S-class. However, the reason TBLS have been put in a class of their own for a long time is that they have had relevant stability and high standard of performance. Fantasy, Calm, and Zero emphasize this difference; with preparation they are capable of similar feats but do not stick to that standard.


Stork? STABILITY?! Are you provoking us? Since when Stork outclases Fantasy/Zero/Effort with his performance? As I see his time gone in 2009. TBLS is kinda wishfull thinking ATM.


Stork is extremely stable. When he has a bad round he falls from his usual 65 to 50%. He never slumped as much as Bisu did.


gorchiza
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Bulgaria200 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 19:02:23
December 07 2011 19:01 GMT
#1016
the killer probe forever !!!
O mighty probe !

+ Show Spoiler +
the probe which killed a reaver !
http://www.youtube.com/user/GORCHIZA?feature=mhee
Kazeyonoma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2912 Posts
December 07 2011 19:22 GMT
#1017
nice win for Woongjin, and holy hell STX putting up a fight.
damnit why did i opt for Die_Soo instead of SoulKey in my fantasy league! =(
I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever!
KamMoye
Profile Joined December 2010
United States721 Posts
December 07 2011 19:27 GMT
#1018
On December 08 2011 03:52 gen.Sun wrote:
Stork is extremely stable. When he has a bad round he falls from his usual 65 to 50%. He never slumped as much as Bisu did.




When exactly did Bisu's slump begin? From 9.1.09 to 10.15.10 he was sporting a 57% win-rate. Gets higher the earlier in '09 you go.
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8098 Posts
December 07 2011 19:33 GMT
#1019
On December 08 2011 01:13 VGhost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 00:56 StarStruck wrote:
The lineups are predetermined before the actual games start. They submit it to the refs, so they cannot change it on the fly. -.-


Can we get a source one way or the other? You're saying this, Ideas has said they're not predetermined... now I'm just confused.


we need to get someone who speaks korean to tweet like every progamer until we get an answer lol
Free Palestine
soujiro_
Profile Joined June 2010
Uruguay5195 Posts
December 07 2011 19:40 GMT
#1020
stx getting to game 5 and then trolling

thanks to the streamers
ace hwaiting!!
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