On September 24 2011 23:31 Vuk_91 wrote: I remember watching flash against 2 base carriers on pathfinder,I think it`s against Kal. He owned him. Completely. You can`t tell me that wraiths are better choice then goliaths on Pathfinder? If it was so that would have been the most imbalanced map in history of bw... P.S. Hydras are not that bad against tanks :D
if you can snipe the observers (which Fantasy got pretty close to doing) cloaked wraiths are p. much instawin against Carriers
If Jangbi had not reacted properly (getting plenty of observers and keeping them well-spread out) those wraiths could've been game-winning for Fantasy.
On September 25 2011 01:59 Ikonn wrote: ...but of course you need to keep your comsats safe
Funny, one of the first "highlight reel" games I remember watching from fantasy was a loss to Light where Light had the wraiths – and carefully killed all fantasy's comsats before using them.
Anyway, just rewatched the finals. Brief thoughts:
Game 1: Kind of a BO loss. I think fantasy expected DTs based on his scouting (certainly turreted up quickly), and taking a relatively quick third did him in badly when the carriers showed up.
Game 2: DTs looked cute but accomplished very little. First recall was slightly better but Jangbi lost too much for too little, so fantasy simply massed up and went for the knock-out blow. The recall that wrecked fantasy's third was well-executed but really just made it look closer than it was.
Game 3: Somebody in the comments on YouTube was talking nonsense about "fantasy forgot the anti-harass build". No: Jangbi pretty much put on a clinic. The double-shuttle play that neutralized the goliaths was pimp, and it was downhill for fantasy from there.
Game 4: What was this I don't even. Obviously as everyone's pointed out Jangbi should have had a draw or even a win in the end. On the other hand he was caught out completely by fantasy's way early attack. On the other other hand, fantasy should have put up a turret or left a tank behind or, you know, something.
Game 5: First things first: brilliant play from Jangbi. On the other hand, fantasy got gamed badly. It's vaguely possible that his quasi-turbo-newbie was spur of the moment and he was improvising the whole time (bad idea). More probably, it was a planned build that fell apart on one simple thing: he was clearly expecting something like "lose carrier tech -> try something else -> lolnope". I'd also guess that whatever timing he'd been practicing against didn't let the opponent get out two carriers before losing anything, either.
On a vaguely related note, either the bases on Pathfinder suck for Terran, or fantasy's base layout (especially in Game 5) was just bad. Many people noticed the huge amount of money he was floating regularly, but he didn't have much room to add production – and in fact floated his rax in the endgame to try to find more room.
Overall, I feel like in terms of judging "player quality" Games 1 and 4 are a wash (though for very different reasons: 1 didn't leave much room for a player to define the game, while 4 was chaos), Game 2 goes to fantasy, Game 3 goes to Jangbi in a landslide, and Game 5 also (and obviously) says Jangbi was better. I think it's safe to say the better player (at least on the day) won.
On September 24 2011 18:12 Vuk_91 wrote: For me,it`s very strange how no one has even mentioned the stupidest thing Fantasy did in that 5th game: Wraiths. I mean come on,seriously? What is this,game 5 of the most prestigious E-sports tournament in the world,or some random ICCup game?
Wraiths are more mobile in Pathfinder
Ow yeah, this is what happens if you lose all your observers or they happen to get blinded and your opponent has cloaked wraiths.
On September 24 2011 23:31 Vuk_91 wrote: I remember watching flash against 2 base carriers on pathfinder,I think it`s against Kal. He owned him. Completely. You can`t tell me that wraiths are better choice then goliaths on Pathfinder? If it was so that would have been the most imbalanced map in history of bw... P.S. Hydras are not that bad against tanks :D
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Fantasy has better judgment than you do when it comes to Brood War strategy
On September 17 2011 21:18 Malinor wrote: Best game five of all times
not sure about the best, but it is top 2-3.
i can think of july vs goodfriend game 5, reach vs chojja game 5, anytime vs boxer game 5 for finals, but if you count semi finals, you can add in savior vs iris game 5 osl semis in EVER on neo arkanoid.... that was a fucking epic game.
but yeah, holy shit
Woah I just checked that Savior vs Iris on Ever OSL. What a game. Definately best game 5 that I've seen.
Game 5 of Bisu vs Stork in GomTV MSL 2 was incredibly good.
On September 24 2011 23:31 Vuk_91 wrote: I remember watching flash against 2 base carriers on pathfinder,I think it`s against Kal. He owned him. Completely. You can`t tell me that wraiths are better choice then goliaths on Pathfinder? If it was so that would have been the most imbalanced map in history of bw... P.S. Hydras are not that bad against tanks :D
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Fantasy has better judgment than you do when it comes to Brood War strategy
They are people. They make mistakes. I am watching VOD,I see whole map and because of that it is very possible that sometimes I can have better judgment than any progamer (ok,except flash maybe). Watch VOD on Nevake`s channel,and stop it at 18:00. Look how Fantasy positions his troops. What does it have to do with map? They are on the middle of the map where terran wants to be vs carriers and yet he fails because his tanks are out of position. 3 or 4 more times the same thing happened. I really can`t believe that someone thinks that Wraiths are better then Goliaths on any map...Last time someone won with wraiths vs carriers was 7-8 years ago... And just for the record,I think Fantasy played a great finals,but seems to me that he got too excited when it seemed like he won that 5th game.
There are plenty of modern high-level games where T adds wraiths in the mix, dude. Fantasy did it vs Much earlier during the PL season, Light did it against Stork... it's nowhere near as uncommon, rare and exotic as you try to make it sound like.
Does someone have a chart with how much time was Fantasy running at 1K +? If its fairly low, then its because of the turrets spamming that costed him the lack of the macro. If its a long time, then its mostly psychological reasons. Up to after that point where JangBi lost his tech, nat under siege (no pun intended), I truly thought that Fantasy was going to win 100% from that point on, I remembered throwing my coffee into my monitor. But then JB somehow bust out some of the smartest decisions ever with great micro, great multitask and most importantly great macro. He was on top of his game at every points. The thing that impressed me a lot was that he responded everything with carefulness, its like he knew that with tight plays, he can overwhelm fantasy. This to show mechanics > gimmicks.
On September 27 2011 10:04 Xiphos wrote: Does someone have a chart with how much time was Fantasy running at 1K +? If its fairly low, then its because of the turrets spamming that costed him the lack of the macro. If its a long time, then its mostly psychological reasons. Up to after that point where JangBi lost his tech, nat under siege (no pun intended), I truly thought that Fantasy was going to win 100% from that point on, I remembered throwing my coffee into my monitor. But then JB somehow bust out some of the smartest decisions ever with great micro, great multitask and most importantly great macro. He was on top of his game at every points. The thing that impressed me a lot was that he responded everything with carefulness, its like he knew that with tight plays, he can overwhelm fantasy. This to show mechanics > gimmicks.
i'd need to watch again to make sure but I feel like a lot of his extra minerals came after he took his 3rd. it was basically like he took it and never used it (at least not until jangbi killed most of his base and he was running off of a lot of stocked up money lol). but he was probably not macroing very well before that too. he had a pretty low factory count all game.
On September 27 2011 10:04 Xiphos wrote: Does someone have a chart with how much time was Fantasy running at 1K +? If its fairly low, then its because of the turrets spamming that costed him the lack of the macro. If its a long time, then its mostly psychological reasons. Up to after that point where JangBi lost his tech, nat under siege (no pun intended), I truly thought that Fantasy was going to win 100% from that point on, I remembered throwing my coffee into my monitor. But then JB somehow bust out some of the smartest decisions ever with great micro, great multitask and most importantly great macro. He was on top of his game at every points. The thing that impressed me a lot was that he responded everything with carefulness, its like he knew that with tight plays, he can overwhelm fantasy. This to show mechanics > gimmicks.
terrible anti interceptor micro. That's how fantasy lost it. Put flash there, put sea there, hell put skyhigh there, they probably could have done something to win the game. But pretty much refusing to attack interceptors with goliaths isn't going to win games. This shows mechanics>(bad micro + bad macro)
On September 24 2011 23:31 Vuk_91 wrote: I remember watching flash against 2 base carriers on pathfinder,I think it`s against Kal. He owned him. Completely. You can`t tell me that wraiths are better choice then goliaths on Pathfinder? If it was so that would have been the most imbalanced map in history of bw... P.S. Hydras are not that bad against tanks :D
Didn't watch that game, especially because Kal has been pure crap for a long time now and not really worth watching vods. What was Flash's build order? Was it similar to his build against Jangbi on Pathfinder? Because if it is, you can simply watch Flash vs Jangbi to see how protoss counter terran turtling.
Flash doesn't kill interceptors faster than others because he can perform magic. It's because he knows where to fight carriers and he has +2 attack upgrades. +2 upgrades require science facility, which is very expensive and mean the terran have to turtle to get. Fantasy's builds are geared towards harass, so he almost never get quick +2.
If Fantasy played Flash style of fast-upgrade TvP, Jangbi would easily just expand everywhere and kill Fantasy the normal way.
[x] have a 2 year slump leading up to the OSL [x] ensure no protoss wins a StarLeague for about 3 years leading up to the OSL [x] scrape through Survivor only by winning the wildcard [x] scrape through your group only by winning the tie-breakers [x] defeat bonjwa [x] defeat your weakest matchup and and the guy who beat you comfortably earlier in the tournament [x] provide the most entertaining finals in some time in one of BW's darkest moments [x] defeat defending champion in his strongest matchup in his strongest format of play [x] avenge your teammate [x] exit the kong obeying epic yellow cartoon from TL/Fomos [?] other epic story lines i've potentially forgotten [x] win OSL
Well done JangBi. You achieved a lot this tournament
What epic background stories. Did I miss any? GG WP JB
On September 28 2011 06:51 Jragon wrote: As I think I said earlier in this thread, I'm travelling at the moment so I've only just watched the final. Reposting my YouTube comment here:
[x] have a 2 year slump leading up to the OSL [x] ensure no protoss wins a StarLeague for about 3 years leading up to the OSL [x] scrape through Survivor only by winning the wildcard [x] scrape through your group only by winning the tie-breakers [x] defeat bonjwa [x] defeat your weakest matchup and and the guy who beat you comfortably earlier in the tournament [x] provide the most entertaining finals in some time in one of BW's darkest moments [x] defeat defending champion in his strongest matchup in his strongest format of play [x] avenge your teammate [x] exit the kong obeying epic yellow cartoon from TL/Fomos [?] other epic story lines i've potentially forgotten [x] win OSL
Well done JangBi. You achieved a lot this tournament
What epic background stories. Did I miss any? GG WP JB
EPT
