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On July 17 2011 03:07 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 02:34 koreasilver wrote:On July 17 2011 02:15 Holgerius wrote:On July 17 2011 02:08 koreasilver wrote:
5rax < lurker opening, this isn't all too hard to understand. That's a really inaccurate statement. It is not an autowin in any way, and definitely not vs someone with as good anti-lurker micro with MnM as Flash has. It's obviously not auto-win, but it really isn't that hard to see that 3rax and 4rax fare better against lurker openings. The +1 5rax builds are designed specifically for muta openings. Anyone who's watched BW for the past two years knows that Flash has chewed up lurker openings like they're nothing, yeah, but just about everyone should also agree that opening 5rax is about the worst case scenario against a lurker opening (barring valk openings). There is a large difference between 4rax and 5rax openings; they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath, really. Seeing that Flash has actually beaten lurker openings with valk openings it's not a stretch to say he could most definitely beat it with 5 Rax.  I don't think Flash would allow a Zerg to move out of his base at all in most games with these openings. The lings + the stop lurkers fucked that all up though in this game.
Yeah, the fact that Flash got played around the way he did was all because Zero is an incredible player, and you can't take that away from the game. The game wasn't "meh" in any sense, imo. 21:40 to 22:40 was beautiful.
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On July 17 2011 02:22 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2011 16:34 tomatriedes wrote:
Every other map in proleague is statistically terran-favored at the moment. I can't believe people are whining because one single map is favoring zerg. Agreed. And even Icarus is 47%-48% for Terran, so hardly a battle royale. It is pure heroism that zergs are doing that they are doing in the face of these tough maps, Zero being the best of them.
Looking only at map winrate is misleading. Consider the games played by the best TvZ players: Flash, Light, and Sea, and we can throw in Fantasy I guess.
Flash: ggaemo, Hyuk, Hydra, Shine, Hydra, ZerO
Light: ZerO, Hydra, Juni, s2
Fantasy: Modesty, Hyuk, Calm, ZerO, Calm, Perfective, Jaedong
Sea: Shine, ZerO, Calm, Jaedong
The best terrans are only beating bad zergs, and losing against every good one except for Flash beating Hydra once and Calm being clam
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On July 17 2011 03:07 koreasilver wrote:Okay, then by that logic one shouldn't also say "double command > 12hatch" because you don't lose automatically from it. Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 02:42 pylonsalad wrote:
5 rax build does not lose to lurker openings if T can contain the Z on 2 bases. Flash's mistake was simply approaching too close to Zero's choke and getting caught by hold lurkers. If he simply sat back and held a soft-contain, Zero would find it hard to secure a 3rd. It wasn't a BO win. Zero won through tactics and Flash not being his usual perfect-starsense self. That area he put his marines basically was where you would position your marines if you were going to hold a soft contain because if you go further back then you create a leak. Zero didn't win just because of the openings, since Flash is one of those players that can close the gap from a deficit moreso than any other player, but Zero did have an advantageous opening.
No, that's just bad inference on your part.
Like I said, it's about the context. We are arguing about whether Flash lost due to the BO's, There is no reason for you to say something as obvious as what you said if you didn't mean to say that it's an auto loss.
On July 17 2011 03:02 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 02:05 almond wrote:On July 17 2011 01:44 Xiphos wrote:
Flash vs ZerO was meh for me....it was just a BO win for ZerO (I might be biased here because I open up my ZvT 70% of the time using Lurkers) and Terran just didn't know what to do! But this is what am I talking about with ZvT, open 50% with Lurkers and the other 50% with Mutalisks to switch gameplays in order the Terran on their feet. Flash took it for granted thinking that ZerO would go Mutas. Throughout the game, never for one second I thought ZerO is in trouble. Even if there wasn't a stop Lurkers, Flash still wouldn't have breached into ZerO's natural with 2 Sunkens + 6 Lurkers. Ok first of all the 4 rax +1 build does not lose to 3 hatch lurker. Second, the lack of turrets would suggest that Flash knew that Zero was opening lurkers. Lastly, you have to keep in mind that Zero had no 3rd. It was pretty much an all in strat with all the gas he spent on speed and drop. If it hadn't been for the stop lurkers, Flash would pretty much have free reign over the centre of the map. Zero took a gamble with stop lurkers, and it paid off. No doubt the game would have been a lot different otherwise. When was the last time you've seen tier 2 speed ovie drops in zvt? Zero pulled it off and it was a great game. The way I see this game is, Zero won because he was able to denied the scouting. This is the single most important event in this game. So to me this is more of a BO win than "3 Hatch lurk vs 5rax". As soon as the first batch of lurkers morphed, the caster immediately predicted that it will be a drop by counting the lurker number(six). If the caster can tell, so can Flash. But he simply does not have enough information.
Right. But had Flash not lost his army for nothing, think about what would happen if Zero tried to drop.
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Yeah, but it isn't as obvious for some people as it is for others.
On July 17 2011 02:15 DMXD wrote:
5 rax is actually pretty good against lurker opening. Once terran scan and see that the zerg is going lurkers, terran can just muster up his mnm and contain the shit out of zerg.
Plus I seen flash's 4/5 rax destroy lurker openings before.
But whatever, we actually agree with each other about pretty much everything. I think I've just become too cynical about everything.
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Finally someone did something other than going mutas against Flash's oh-so-predictable 5 rax +1 push.
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On July 17 2011 03:09 Xiphos wrote:The thing that bothered me the most if when flash's Scan went online, the Ob didn't show where the scan landed. Was it scaned at natural and main? Natural + third hatchery? Third hatchery + the main? Its important to know whether flash saw the hydra den or not.
It doesn't show it in the video on Nevake, but if you watch what nanashin streamed, at 13:06 it shows Flash's first person view and you can see where he scanned. He definitely saw the hydralisk den, and he responded by putting down a bunker at the front and an additional Barracks and immediately moved out.
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HOLY EPIC SERIES!!! Seriously this is what I am talkin about for play off games.
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On July 17 2011 03:09 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:02 mmdmmd wrote:On July 17 2011 02:05 almond wrote:On July 17 2011 01:44 Xiphos wrote:
Flash vs ZerO was meh for me....it was just a BO win for ZerO (I might be biased here because I open up my ZvT 70% of the time using Lurkers) and Terran just didn't know what to do! But this is what am I talking about with ZvT, open 50% with Lurkers and the other 50% with Mutalisks to switch gameplays in order the Terran on their feet. Flash took it for granted thinking that ZerO would go Mutas. Throughout the game, never for one second I thought ZerO is in trouble. Even if there wasn't a stop Lurkers, Flash still wouldn't have breached into ZerO's natural with 2 Sunkens + 6 Lurkers. Ok first of all the 4 rax +1 build does not lose to 3 hatch lurker. Second, the lack of turrets would suggest that Flash knew that Zero was opening lurkers. Lastly, you have to keep in mind that Zero had no 3rd. It was pretty much an all in strat with all the gas he spent on speed and drop. If it hadn't been for the stop lurkers, Flash would pretty much have free reign over the centre of the map. Zero took a gamble with stop lurkers, and it paid off. No doubt the game would have been a lot different otherwise. When was the last time you've seen tier 2 speed ovie drops in zvt? Zero pulled it off and it was a great game. The way I see this game is, Zero won because he was able to denied the scouting. This is the single most important event in this game. So to me this is more of a BO win than "3 Hatch lurk vs 5rax". As soon as the first batch of lurkers morphed, the caster immediately predicted that it will be a drop by counting the lurker number(six). If the caster can tell, so can Flash. But he simply does not have enough information. The thing that bothered me the most if when flash's Scan went online, the Ob didn't show where the scan landed. Was it scaned at natural and main? Natural + third hatchery? Third hatchery + the main? Its important to know whether flash saw the hydra den or not.
The caster also pointed out a small detail that may or may not be Zero's plan: That he didn't build a spire as normal Zergs do. This can lead to 2 thing: 1. Make Flash think you have spire in a hidden place, so he have to scan. 2. Flash will have to scan more places to make sure if it's Lurk or Muta.
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On July 17 2011 03:58 dRaW wrote:
HOLY EPIC SERIES!!! Seriously this is what I am talkin about for play off games.
hear, hear. The games so far have been electric. Can't wait for Day2
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flash always seem to stick to some one build that he currently feels comfortable in. Like 14cc a while ago. I wish he would variate his openings more.
Beautiful play by Zero. Total domination.
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wow Zero won ace match for Stars again Flash, thats unexpected and very very nice 
edit: watched vod, near flawless execution by Zero, still mortal God Young Ho still mortal, gogogo cuteZerg (maybe this is Stars season, I believe (as Oz is out -...- )
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Fantastic play from zero. There was no way Flash even had a chance in that game. Zero did make a poor decision during the drop (could have ended the game there), but Flash was already incredibly behind anyway. Great job Zero!
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On July 17 2011 05:26 Eun_Star wrote:Fantastic play from zero. There was no way Flash even had a chance in that game. Zero did make a poor decision during the drop (could have ended the game there), but Flash was already incredibly behind anyway. Great job Zero!
Yeah that drop left me with a itchy feeling afterward. ZerO didn't manage his Lurkers properly (could have destroyed the academy at top) and forgot to burrow them after unburrowing, he also lost 2 overloard to flash's rines. But I REALLY loved that move by ZerO when flash got blocked to entered the other half of the map by Lurker/Ling/Dark Swarm and tried to entered through another bridge and bam ZerO drops Lurker/Defilers and block that entrance as well. That move made me scream "holy shit".
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United States4796 Posts
Go Woongjin! :D Kicking ass.
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Just watched that ace match... ZERO IS SO GOOD WTF! Saw right through Flash's +1 bio timing attack that he used versus his brother earlier and stomped him. Amazing game.
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Flash has been using the same BO over the past few games and its preety much a counter to 3 hatch muta + fast 3rd expo from zerg. Zero played smart and skipped mutas and went for some unortodox smart play that paid off.
Gonna try to wake up for day 2 
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oh no Flash couldn't bring it home..
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On July 17 2011 05:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 05:26 Eun_Star wrote:Fantastic play from zero. There was no way Flash even had a chance in that game. Zero did make a poor decision during the drop (could have ended the game there), but Flash was already incredibly behind anyway. Great job Zero! Yeah that drop left me with a itchy feeling afterward. ZerO didn't manage his Lurkers properly (could have destroyed the academy at top) and forgot to burrow them after unburrowing, he also lost 2 overloard to flash's rines. But I REALLY loved that move by ZerO when flash got blocked to entered the other half of the map by Lurker/Ling/Dark Swarm and tried to entered through another bridge and bam ZerO drops Lurker/Defilers and block that entrance as well. That move made me scream "holy shit".
IMHO, strategy wise, Flash's army was not blocked by Zero. He put them there on purpose. He was trying to out multi task Zero by hoping to catch any mistakes in Zero's push. Flash can "A click" lurkers very fast, we've seen this many times. But unfortunately for Flash, Zero's front push was flawless.
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On July 17 2011 07:08 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 05:32 Xiphos wrote:On July 17 2011 05:26 Eun_Star wrote:Fantastic play from zero. There was no way Flash even had a chance in that game. Zero did make a poor decision during the drop (could have ended the game there), but Flash was already incredibly behind anyway. Great job Zero! Yeah that drop left me with a itchy feeling afterward. ZerO didn't manage his Lurkers properly (could have destroyed the academy at top) and forgot to burrow them after unburrowing, he also lost 2 overloard to flash's rines. But I REALLY loved that move by ZerO when flash got blocked to entered the other half of the map by Lurker/Ling/Dark Swarm and tried to entered through another bridge and bam ZerO drops Lurker/Defilers and block that entrance as well. That move made me scream "holy shit". IMHO, strategy wise, Flash's army was not blocked by Zero. He put them there on purpose. He was trying to out multi task Zero by hoping to catch any mistakes in Zero's push. Flash can "A click" lurkers very fast, we've seen this many times. But unfortunately for Flash, Zero's front push was flawless.
Yeah try to A-click on Lurkers under swarm with marines.....
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there was second flank of zero's army coming over the bridge on left side which only got swarmed at last moment flash hoped to take em out
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EPT
