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On November 06 2004 11:43 Guybrush wrote:
And Boxer has a really good % wins vs p hasnt he ? Nevertheless i agree that Boxer is entertaining to watch but i also believe he's the only one capable of pulling of creative strats vs protoss because of his micro, and i find very many similareties between the best tvp players style; oov, nada and xellos.
Which is why I prefer Boxer and Reach over those players. There's only very few players capable of playing creative. You don't see Rage pulling the shit Reach does.
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Nal_rA  any creative zergs btw ?
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On November 06 2004 11:46 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2004 11:43 Guybrush wrote:
And Boxer has a really good % wins vs p hasnt he ? Nevertheless i agree that Boxer is entertaining to watch but i also believe he's the only one capable of pulling of creative strats vs protoss because of his micro, and i find very many similareties between the best tvp players style; oov, nada and xellos. Which is why I prefer Boxer and Reach over those players. There's only very few players capable of playing creative. You don't see Rage pulling the shit Reach does.
Word. I hate the machine terrans (i.e. NaDa, Xellos). I would hate oov but he is Boxer's pupil and I like the fact that he beats down on the other machine terrans.
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On November 06 2004 11:32 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Wait.. do you guys know this player named Boxer? that's the definition of creativity. I'm not saying Reach didn't put in many hours of practice, cause I'm sure he has.
Boxer is an exception. I don't see any other Terran player in the world who manages to keep entertaining me like he does. But Reach is not an exception, as a P player. Nal_rA, Kingdom, Rainbow, Garimto, IntoTheRain... I don't remember many great P constantly playing "by-the-book". It just doesn't fit Protoss style.
As he said, Reach trained these risky strats because he thought he wasn't able to beat players like Xellos or Oov by playing conventional... (Though the first game of the series proved he perfectly could.)
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Kingdom/Raiinbow/IntoTheRains creativy in no way matches with nal_rA, Reach, GARIMTO, Yellow and Boxer's
they are really on another level SC-mind wise. You could argue that Protoss players are more forced to play creative due to a disadvantage when playing standard, but that would only mean that in general creative players tend to stand out faster as Protoss players than for the other races. Boxer proved it's possible to be creative for Terran. Not only possible, but to completely dominate the whole SC scene by doing so.
This is my reason for prefering creative players over the boringness called iloveoov. It's not like he cannot play inventive with his race. He just chooses not to. Whether it's due to imbalance or not doesn't concern me at all, I just like to see the more creative player win.
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another style that I like is just all out aggressiveness. i think you see this kind of style being used a lot by toss and terran such as Kingdom (especially his PvP) and Gundam.
but in a rarer case, zerg. July's ZvT is all out brute force which is so unorthodox for a zerg to play this style, and it works on oov, which is another definative plus.
Yellow's style isn't quite. players like boxer always turn his game vs yellow to have yellow following a step behind in his (ie yellow just defending, and getting enough units to stop an incoming attack).
this gave me an idea to make a poll actually
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On November 06 2004 12:49 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Kingdom/Raiinbow/IntoTheRains creativy in no way matches with nal_rA, Reach, GARIMTO, Yellow and Boxer's
they are really on another level SC-mind wise.
It's still way more creative than TheMarine, Xellos, Sync, Oddysay, Oov or even Nada (which I like more though, cause his micro is amazing, which allows him more options). These guys rarely ever do something cute. The fact is there's an obvious exception in Terran players (Boxer, that is), and there isn't one in P/Z. Well, at least in P.
You could argue that Protoss players are more forced to play creative due to a disadvantage when playing standard, but that would only mean that in general creative players tend to stand out faster as Protoss players than for the other races. Boxer proved it's possible to be creative for Terran. Not only possible, but to completely dominate the whole SC scene by doing so.
I don't think they do it because there's a disadvantage when playing standard. I think they do it because such proxy builds, if risky, actually have a very very good chance of succeeding if done well. I don't see many creative ways of playing TvP - in any pro map - that can be as effective as proxy cannon/gates in Requiem PvT, for example. There are not 1654 ways to play TvP, also.
There wasn't such a big difference to me between Oov and Reach in terms of creativity. I mean, Reach basically repeated what he did vs Xellos on Bifrost, and wonderfully exploited Requiem's imbalance. In the end, he went for proxy builds twice. And there was this Carrier rush, which I wouldn't call particularly "creative". (Oov placing turrets in their way back was the pimpest move of this game in my opinion.) The mass hallucinations strat Reach used in the last but one Starleague, or, let's see, Garimto's fast arbiters vs Boxer, are not even on the same level of creativeness to me.
This is my reason for prefering creative players over the boringness called iloveoov. It's not like he cannot play inventive with his race. He just chooses not to. Whether it's due to imbalance or not doesn't concern me at all, I just like to see the more creative player win.
It's not a question of preference. Boxer's always been my fav player by far and I enjoy watching him play 10 times more than Oov. But if Oov is boring, 95% of terran players, including progamers, are even more. They play the same way, but worse.
By the way, Oov can do unorthodox strats as well. Just for example, he won vs Zeus using biomech on Requiem (last Starleague), he also won vs Zeus by gundam-rushing him on Guillotine, with awesome vulture control/mines placement. In TvZ, he used a mechanic build against Yellow in a heavily ZvT favoured map (is it Gauntlet?) and rolled over him. It's still rare, but it means he can, and will certainly do it again.
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I think Kingdom is on the "next mental level." He is really creative, particularly against zerg. People don't mention his name because he is not doing well currently.
I said it once and i'll say it again: NaDa is antithetical to creativity; he is the death knell to terran creativity. So everyone bashing iloveoov for his lack of creativty should redirect their anger directly to the source: NaDa. If you ask me, iloveoov is leaps and bounds ahead of NaDa mentally.
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I really like agressiveness in Protoss players, which is why I <3 Kingdom. When he's on shape, it's a real pleasure to watch him rape top players, especially PvZ or PvP. His MSL games vs TheMarine were pure art, with agressive proxy builds (in game 1 at least), perfect timing (especially DT in second game, iirc), and of course his lovely pylon prison. Oh, and perfect micro, as well. Total rape.
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PoP yours 2 last posts WoW.
I agree with You. Toss players are simply jealous that Reach lose with oov !
They think out some shit like: "Reach is sexy, beatiful, cute and play like god and oov is boring player who is stupid."
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yooysi im terran player and i think that way -_-
i think 99% protoss suck and are boring but reach, ra and kingdom are on another level
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omg nice avatar nazz 
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Good game..
i remember.. this match
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On November 05 2004 22:22 Splendid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2004 21:05 Ack1027 wrote:On November 05 2004 15:47 Splendid wrote:On November 05 2004 15:42 Ack1027 wrote:
Hahaha holy crap, That's so true iamke55, thanks for pointing that out. Damn Oov is fucking vicious.
But yeah like you said, I think Boxer has a good chance against Oov. Because he's GOING to get into finals. Sorry Yellow, but Boxer's got this starleague hat-trick in the bag. Stop jinxing Boxer. You'll ruin it. I'M jinxing Boxer?!?!?! Precisely. The self-proclaimed "Number One Teamliquid Boxer Fan" predicted that there was "GOING" to be a Boxer-Reach final. Now that is "GOING" into the realm of impossibility.
there was a poll on that but the question was not "who will be on the final" but "who do you want to see in the final" which is a big difference.
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On November 06 2004 13:40 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2004 12:49 [pG]Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Kingdom/Raiinbow/IntoTheRains creativy in no way matches with nal_rA, Reach, GARIMTO, Yellow and Boxer's
they are really on another level SC-mind wise. It's still way more creative than TheMarine, Xellos, Sync, Oddysay, Oov or even Nada (which I like more though, cause his micro is amazing, which allows him more options). These guys rarely ever do something cute. The fact is there's an obvious exception in Terran players (Boxer, that is), and there isn't one in P/Z. Well, at least in P. Show nested quote +You could argue that Protoss players are more forced to play creative due to a disadvantage when playing standard, but that would only mean that in general creative players tend to stand out faster as Protoss players than for the other races. Boxer proved it's possible to be creative for Terran. Not only possible, but to completely dominate the whole SC scene by doing so.
I don't think they do it because there's a disadvantage when playing standard. I think they do it because such proxy builds, if risky, actually have a very very good chance of succeeding if done well. I don't see many creative ways of playing TvP - in any pro map - that can be as effective as proxy cannon/gates in Requiem PvT, for example. There are not 1654 ways to play TvP, also. There wasn't such a big difference to me between Oov and Reach in terms of creativity. I mean, Reach basically repeated what he did vs Xellos on Bifrost, and wonderfully exploited Requiem's imbalance. In the end, he went for proxy builds twice. And there was this Carrier rush, which I wouldn't call particularly "creative". (Oov placing turrets in their way back was the pimpest move of this game in my opinion.) The mass hallucinations strat Reach used in the last but one Starleague, or, let's see, Garimto's fast arbiters vs Boxer, are not even on the same level of creativeness to me. Show nested quote +This is my reason for prefering creative players over the boringness called iloveoov. It's not like he cannot play inventive with his race. He just chooses not to. Whether it's due to imbalance or not doesn't concern me at all, I just like to see the more creative player win. It's not a question of preference. Boxer's always been my fav player by far and I enjoy watching him play 10 times more than Oov. But if Oov is boring, 95% of terran players, including progamers, are even more. They play the same way, but worse. By the way, Oov can do unorthodox strats as well. Just for example, he won vs Zeus using biomech on Requiem (last Starleague), he also won vs Zeus by gundam-rushing him on Guillotine, with awesome vulture control/mines placement. In TvZ, he used a mechanic build against Yellow in a heavily ZvT favoured map (is it Gauntlet?) and rolled over him. It's still rare, but it means he can, and will certainly do it again.
Btw. If I would blame anyone, I would start with Nada.
And look at the last game Oov vs Nada, Dont tell me that mass wrights+ no tanks in the first 15 min is a popular stategy.
I would say Oov is the best come back from the death player (Boxer doesnt count ) and he showed it in the series vs Reach. I dont think thats boring though.
Aha and if any none korean(expecially an white guy) would be as "boring" as Oov, all ppl in this forum would love him. Look at Blackman. His the most uncreative player ever in my opinion, and I dont see much ppl blaming him for that. In opposite, ppl are talking of his amazing timing and macro.
Hmmm how would you call that?? racism  or 
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Norway10161 Posts
Blackman is the most overrated player ever.
oov impresses me a whole lot more than nada does, nada even admitted in an interview that he never changes his strats according to maps but just keeps up the same old thing. The oov we are seeing now is different from the oov we saw only months ago. It is easy to see that he is slowly turning into a hybrid of the best macro around and the lethal strategic mind of boxer.
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Thats my opinion as well.
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Wow, those were amazing games. I don't really like oov, because he repeatedly owns NaDa, but after watching these games, I have much renewed respect for him. Game 1 was fun, his game on bifrost was strong, and that last game was a miracle
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On November 07 2004 11:48 Purind wrote:
Wow, those were amazing games. I don't really like oov, because he repeatedly owns NaDa, but after watching these games, I have much renewed respect for him. Game 1 was fun, his game on bifrost was strong, and that last game was a miracle
Not miracle, he was lucky a littlebit. And Reach looks tired...
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On November 07 2004 13:07 yOOysi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2004 11:48 Purind wrote:
Wow, those were amazing games. I don't really like oov, because he repeatedly owns NaDa, but after watching these games, I have much renewed respect for him. Game 1 was fun, his game on bifrost was strong, and that last game was a miracle Not miracle, he was lucky a littlebit. And Reach looks tired...
Lucky?
I wish I would be lucky like him once
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EPT
