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Holy shit, Zerg players are ridiculously whiny these days. Literally every thread is getting destroyed by ''Terran is imba'' complaints. Even when the Zergs are winning. -__-
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On August 12 2010 17:47 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 17:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:50 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 16:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[quote]
Not entirely! This is MSL, Jaedong only won twice. He's actually behind Bisu in that regard. It's just zerg has some secondary players who were capable of taking home gold in Calm/Luxury. Terran has an even spread with Mind/Flash/ForGG.
Expect the OSL to be much more one sided. :o If I remember correctly. Ro16, Offlines, Offlines, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro16, Ro32, Ro4, 1st place, 2nd place. Jaedong has 85 points according to your system 1st place, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro32, Ro32, 1st place, Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro32 Bisu has 85 points according to your system. They're even, but zerg has faced harder times overall. Can you name ANY other player that reached two finals in a row, while being the only representative of his race in the round of eight both times? No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era. :p Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races. Holy shit shut the fuck up, this isn't even an argument. I have said countless times Jaedong is a great, if not greatest player ever. Stop trying to rub your goddamn bias in my face. This little project of mine has nothing to do with my bias, it's just me throwing together a metric and plotting some goddamn trends. I don't care which race has it better -- there was an argument in the thread over it so I went "Oh hey you know what would make this argument easier to settle? Some nice numbers!" entirely free of my bias. I didn't cheese any numbers, and I don't support one race over the other. What I'm saying is go away you dumb fanboy god. I'm sorry that you can't deal with facts. If I could be bothered to look up the numbers, there would be so many ways to proving that terrans are the most dominating race overall. It's just that zergs have caught up a lot in recent years. If this frustrates you, then I'll leave you alone.
The moon is made of cheese, I'm just too lazy to prove it.
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When was the last time Stork didn't get silver in any WCG?
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2-0ed by Pure? Disturbing, Stork.
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On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:50 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 16:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:34 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 16:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It just goes to show how well zergs operate in crunchtime, as well. Despite having the lowest average of success in tournaments, they win more titles. Atleast in the current era. If you go back to like 2001 or something then it's just nada and boxer taking all the points. :> The power of Jaedong. Not entirely! This is MSL, Jaedong only won twice. He's actually behind Bisu in that regard. It's just zerg has some secondary players who were capable of taking home gold in Calm/Luxury. Terran has an even spread with Mind/Flash/ForGG. Expect the OSL to be much more one sided. :o If I remember correctly. Ro16, Offlines, Offlines, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro16, Ro32, Ro4, 1st place, 2nd place. Jaedong has 85 points according to your system 1st place, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro32, Ro32, 1st place, Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro32 Bisu has 85 points according to your system. They're even, but zerg has faced harder times overall. Can you name ANY other player that reached two finals in a row, while being the only representative of his race in the round of eight both times? No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era. :p Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races.
Haha why do you even post? All of your posts just say "terran is imba but because of JAEDONG MY HERO zerg looks okay. I refuse to back this up in any way but STOP DENYING IT!" Do you think this is a normal way to try to prove a point?
I think sc2 whining has bled into bw -_-
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What the hell stork.... how did you lose 2-0....
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On August 13 2010 00:40 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:50 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 16:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:34 Letmelose wrote:
[quote]
The power of Jaedong. Not entirely! This is MSL, Jaedong only won twice. He's actually behind Bisu in that regard. It's just zerg has some secondary players who were capable of taking home gold in Calm/Luxury. Terran has an even spread with Mind/Flash/ForGG. Expect the OSL to be much more one sided. :o If I remember correctly. Ro16, Offlines, Offlines, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro16, Ro32, Ro4, 1st place, 2nd place. Jaedong has 85 points according to your system 1st place, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro32, Ro32, 1st place, Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro32 Bisu has 85 points according to your system. They're even, but zerg has faced harder times overall. Can you name ANY other player that reached two finals in a row, while being the only representative of his race in the round of eight both times? No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era. :p Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races. Haha why do you even post? All of your posts just say "terran is imba but because of JAEDONG MY HERO zerg looks okay. I refuse to back this up in any way but STOP DENYING IT!" Do you think this is a normal way to try to prove a point? I think sc2 whining has bled into bw -_-
Time to back my theory up.
1) Since the start of the 2007 season (not the year 2007), YGOSU records the following:
TvT 1883 matches
ZvZ 1777 matches
PvP 1320 matches
TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour
ZvP 2325 : 1915 in zerg’s favour
PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour
Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races
Zerg is 4636 : 4547 overall against other races
Protoss is 4228 : 4419 overall against other races
Terran’s have won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran also happens to be the most played mirror in the game.
2) This is how the record is changed if we count Kespa officiated matches only:
TvT 1038 matches
ZvZ 782 matches
PvP 633 matches
TvZ 892 : 753 in terran’s favour
ZvP 694 : 617 in zerg’s favour
PvT 802 : 737 in protoss’s favour
Terran is 1629 : 1555 overall against other races
Zerg is 1447 : 1509 overall against other races
Protoss is 1419 : 1431 overall against other races
Terran is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror in the game.
3) This is how the record is changed if we count Proleague matches only:
TvT 742 matches
ZvZ 601 matches
PvP 490 matches
TvZ 486 : 399 in terran’s favour
ZvP 424 : 375 in zerg’s favour
PvT 462 : 429 in protoss’s favour
Terran is 915 : 828 overall against other races
Zerg is 823 : 861 overall against other races
Protoss is 837 : 853 overall against other races
Terran has again won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror.
4) This is how the record is changed if we count individual league matches only:
TvT 208 matches
ZvZ 136 matches
PvP 129 matches
TvZ 250 : 249 in zerg’s favour
ZvP 185 : 148 in zerg’s favour
PvT 244 : 214 in protoss’s favour
Terran is 463 : 494 overall against other races
Zerg is 435 : 397 overall against other races
Protoss is 392 : 399 overall against other races
Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror.
Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive record in both their match-ups. I guess this is where the consensus that zergs have dominated the other races in recent years stems from.
Considering how much individual league statistics are influenced due to the nature of brackets, the relatively small amount of gaming pool and greater number of games played at higher stages (Bo3, Bo5), it’s not a far fetched thing to say that the might of a few players do change the overall appearance of things in my opinion. I’m just claiming the obvious here, nothing against the common consensus of any well reasoned follower of the progaming scene. How my opinion that terrans are still the most dominating race in the progaming scene, and that the results of individual leagues are swayed greatly by the most successful gamer of our era is somehow so far stretched that it borders on insane ramblings of a blind fanboy is beyond me.
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See, protoss is the weakest race.
On August 13 2010 00:16 andrewlt wrote:
When was the last time Stork didn't get silver in any WCG?
06, sad i know. =( =(
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Oh my god. This is becoming unbearable. People whining like primary school kids about imbalance. Imba this imba that. Imba Terran, poor Zergs can't win against imba Terran... Imba terran this, imba terran that... God...
Every single thread.
You can pull out all the statistics and one thing will remain true. At most there is slight imbalance in favour of Terran in TvZ. No matter how the hell you will try to tilt the statistics towards your liking the ration in TvZ will be at MOST 55:45. And it FLUCTUATES a lot. That's how it is, how it was and how it will be. So please just stop that BS!
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LMAO, what the hell Stork xD!?!?
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On August 13 2010 08:52 Lebesgue wrote:
Oh my god. This is becoming unbearable. People whining like primary school kids about imbalance. Imba this imba that. Imba Terran, poor Zergs can't win against imba Terran... Imba terran this, imba terran that... God...
Every single thread.
You can pull out all the statistics and one thing will remain true. At most there is slight imbalance in favour of Terran in TvZ. No matter how the hell you will try to tilt the statistics towards your liking the ration in TvZ will be at MOST 55:45. And it FLUCTUATES a lot. That's how it is, how it was and how it will be. So please just stop that BS!
The last thing I wanted to do was look up numbers on YGOSU just to back up one of the most obvious statement around. It really is a completely pointless endeavor that was only done for the sake of closure. Make what you will of all this, because to be quite frank, the people on the otherside of the fence are just as incoherent with their arguments, and seem to be incapable of dealing with cold, hard facts.
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On August 12 2010 23:30 Holgerius wrote:
Holy shit, Zerg players are ridiculously whiny these days. Literally every thread is getting destroyed by ''Terran is imba'' complaints. Even when the Zergs are winning. -__-
The terran fans started it this time buddy boy- they were whining about zerg being too dominant, I was just rebutting it.
Read all the freaking thread before making silly comments.
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sc2 made TL imba 
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On August 13 2010 04:47 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 00:40 huameng wrote:On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:50 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 16:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[quote]
Not entirely! This is MSL, Jaedong only won twice. He's actually behind Bisu in that regard. It's just zerg has some secondary players who were capable of taking home gold in Calm/Luxury. Terran has an even spread with Mind/Flash/ForGG.
Expect the OSL to be much more one sided. :o If I remember correctly. Ro16, Offlines, Offlines, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro16, Ro32, Ro4, 1st place, 2nd place. Jaedong has 85 points according to your system 1st place, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro32, Ro32, 1st place, Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro32 Bisu has 85 points according to your system. They're even, but zerg has faced harder times overall. Can you name ANY other player that reached two finals in a row, while being the only representative of his race in the round of eight both times? No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era. :p Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races. Haha why do you even post? All of your posts just say "terran is imba but because of JAEDONG MY HERO zerg looks okay. I refuse to back this up in any way but STOP DENYING IT!" Do you think this is a normal way to try to prove a point? I think sc2 whining has bled into bw -_- Time to back my theory up. 1) Since the start of the 2007 season (not the year 2007), YGOSU records the following: TvT 1883 matches ZvZ 1777 matches PvP 1320 matches TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour ZvP 2325 : 1915 in zerg’s favour PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races Zerg is 4636 : 4547 overall against other races Protoss is 4228 : 4419 overall against other races Terran’s have won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran also happens to be the most played mirror in the game. 2) This is how the record is changed if we count Kespa officiated matches only: TvT 1038 matches ZvZ 782 matches PvP 633 matches TvZ 892 : 753 in terran’s favour ZvP 694 : 617 in zerg’s favour PvT 802 : 737 in protoss’s favour Terran is 1629 : 1555 overall against other races Zerg is 1447 : 1509 overall against other races Protoss is 1419 : 1431 overall against other races Terran is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror in the game. 3) This is how the record is changed if we count Proleague matches only: TvT 742 matches ZvZ 601 matches PvP 490 matches TvZ 486 : 399 in terran’s favour ZvP 424 : 375 in zerg’s favour PvT 462 : 429 in protoss’s favour Terran is 915 : 828 overall against other races Zerg is 823 : 861 overall against other races Protoss is 837 : 853 overall against other races Terran has again won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. 4) This is how the record is changed if we count individual league matches only: TvT 208 matches ZvZ 136 matches PvP 129 matches TvZ 250 : 249 in zerg’s favour ZvP 185 : 148 in zerg’s favour PvT 244 : 214 in protoss’s favour Terran is 463 : 494 overall against other races Zerg is 435 : 397 overall against other races Protoss is 392 : 399 overall against other races Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive record in both their match-ups. I guess this is where the consensus that zergs have dominated the other races in recent years stems from. Considering how much individual league statistics are influenced due to the nature of brackets, the relatively small amount of gaming pool and greater number of games played at higher stages (Bo3, Bo5), it’s not a far fetched thing to say that the might of a few players do change the overall appearance of things in my opinion. I’m just claiming the obvious here, nothing against the common consensus of any well reasoned follower of the progaming scene. How my opinion that terrans are still the most dominating race in the progaming scene, and that the results of individual leagues are swayed greatly by the most successful gamer of our era is somehow so far stretched that it borders on insane ramblings of a blind fanboy is beyond me.
Are you kidding me? Divide your own data here:
TvZ : 53.25% Terran Favor
ZvP : 54.83% Zerg Favor
PvT : 52.48% Protoss Favor
Combined: Favor in good + (1-Favor) in bad
T : 0.5325+(1-0.5248) = 1.0077
Z : 0.5483+(1-0.5325) = 1.0158
P : 0.5248+(1-0.5483) = 0.9765
A) TvZ isn't the most imba matchup by this data
B) We're talking 2.48-4.83% imbalance in matchups, is this so insurmountable as to complain this much?
C) Using this rough combined metric (seems plausible to me) things are god damn balanced, but if you want to split hairs Z has it better than T by some insignificant margin.
Do not take away from this: Z is imba
Do take from this: Nobody is imba, Toss needs a little love, STFU with Terran imba garbage
Edit: This is the kespa+nonkespa data. I'm at work so I cant run the other numbers now.
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omg stork.. 2-0.. that's just sad... and I thought you going to go for silver again T_T
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On August 13 2010 23:14 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 04:47 Letmelose wrote:On August 13 2010 00:40 huameng wrote:On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 16:50 Letmelose wrote:
[quote]
If I remember correctly.
Ro16, Offlines, Offlines, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro16, Ro32, Ro4, 1st place, 2nd place.
Jaedong has 85 points according to your system
1st place, 1st place, 2nd place, Ro32, Ro32, 1st place, Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro32
Bisu has 85 points according to your system.
They're even, but zerg has faced harder times overall. Can you name ANY other player that reached two finals in a row, while being the only representative of his race in the round of eight both times? No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era. :p Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races. Haha why do you even post? All of your posts just say "terran is imba but because of JAEDONG MY HERO zerg looks okay. I refuse to back this up in any way but STOP DENYING IT!" Do you think this is a normal way to try to prove a point? I think sc2 whining has bled into bw -_- Time to back my theory up. 1) Since the start of the 2007 season (not the year 2007), YGOSU records the following: TvT 1883 matches ZvZ 1777 matches PvP 1320 matches TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour ZvP 2325 : 1915 in zerg’s favour PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races Zerg is 4636 : 4547 overall against other races Protoss is 4228 : 4419 overall against other races Terran’s have won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran also happens to be the most played mirror in the game. 2) This is how the record is changed if we count Kespa officiated matches only: TvT 1038 matches ZvZ 782 matches PvP 633 matches TvZ 892 : 753 in terran’s favour ZvP 694 : 617 in zerg’s favour PvT 802 : 737 in protoss’s favour Terran is 1629 : 1555 overall against other races Zerg is 1447 : 1509 overall against other races Protoss is 1419 : 1431 overall against other races Terran is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror in the game. 3) This is how the record is changed if we count Proleague matches only: TvT 742 matches ZvZ 601 matches PvP 490 matches TvZ 486 : 399 in terran’s favour ZvP 424 : 375 in zerg’s favour PvT 462 : 429 in protoss’s favour Terran is 915 : 828 overall against other races Zerg is 823 : 861 overall against other races Protoss is 837 : 853 overall against other races Terran has again won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. 4) This is how the record is changed if we count individual league matches only: TvT 208 matches ZvZ 136 matches PvP 129 matches TvZ 250 : 249 in zerg’s favour ZvP 185 : 148 in zerg’s favour PvT 244 : 214 in protoss’s favour Terran is 463 : 494 overall against other races Zerg is 435 : 397 overall against other races Protoss is 392 : 399 overall against other races Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive record in both their match-ups. I guess this is where the consensus that zergs have dominated the other races in recent years stems from. Considering how much individual league statistics are influenced due to the nature of brackets, the relatively small amount of gaming pool and greater number of games played at higher stages (Bo3, Bo5), it’s not a far fetched thing to say that the might of a few players do change the overall appearance of things in my opinion. I’m just claiming the obvious here, nothing against the common consensus of any well reasoned follower of the progaming scene. How my opinion that terrans are still the most dominating race in the progaming scene, and that the results of individual leagues are swayed greatly by the most successful gamer of our era is somehow so far stretched that it borders on insane ramblings of a blind fanboy is beyond me. Are you kidding me? Divide your own data here: TvZ : 53.25% Terran Favor ZvP : 54.83% Zerg Favor PvT : 52.48% Protoss Favor Combined: Favor in good + (1-Favor) in bad T : 0.5325+(1-0.5248) = 1.0077 Z : 0.5483+(1-0.5325) = 1.0158 P : 0.5248+(1-0.5483) = 0.9765 A) TvZ isn't the most imba matchup by this data B) We're talking 2.48-4.83% imbalance in matchups, is this so insurmountable as to complain this much? C) Using this rough combined metric (seems plausible to me) things are god damn balanced, but if you want to split hairs Z has it better than T by some insignificant margin. Do not take away from this: Z is imba Do take from this: Nobody is imba, Toss needs a little love, STFU with Terran imba garbage Edit: This is the kespa+nonkespa data. I'm at work so I cant run the other numbers now.
What part of terran players participating in more televised matches, having more victories and having less defeats despite the greater number of games in non-mirror match-ups don't you get? Why do you think I bothered to list the number of mirror match-ups? Do you think it's a coincidence that terran versus terran happens to be the most played mirror in the scene at every level imaginable? Is it a simple flip of the coin that terran players have represented their team far more than the other two races?
The greater the pool of games we take, the more dominant the terran presence becomes. It's not just about the winning ratio, although it's interesting that you decided to present it as an average of the winning ratio between the two non-mirror match-ups, when I thought a simple calculation of the actual number of games won and games lost in non-mirror match-ups would have been sufficient. There are plenty of other factors to consider, a few of which I have mentioned above.
I find myself repeating the same thing ad infinitum here, and I hope this will be the last time I mention this.
Terrans have pretty much always have been the race to be in the progaming scene. The difference is not much, but it is substantial enough for most people to have noticed. It didn't matter which statistic you took, be it the number of individual leagues won, number of televised matches won, the number of top ranked players, the overall winning ratio in televised matches etc. However, terran superiority over the other two races (however slight it is, it was there) has become less significant in recent years, especially in the individual league with the success of some select few individuals, with Jaedong, being by far the most noticable.
It does not change the fact, that terran players today, are still the most played, most trusted by the coaches, most successful in terms of the number of games won in the scene. To claim that zerg as a whole race, have dominated the scene in recent years seemed to me the arguments of someone who got a little too overwhelmed by the number of individual league trophies taken by zerg in recent years. Surely, it had a lot to do with the individual success of the most successful player of our era. I don't see what was so sacrilegious about my argument.
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On August 14 2010 00:08 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:14 revy wrote:On August 13 2010 04:47 Letmelose wrote:On August 13 2010 00:40 huameng wrote:On August 12 2010 17:37 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:29 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 12 2010 17:08 Letmelose wrote:On August 12 2010 17:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[quote]
No but that's kind of a silly and arbitrary way to state that Jaedong's great. We all know Jaedong's great, why are you being a jerk and shoving it down my throat when I'm just doing this out of the kindness of my morbidly curious heart? :> waaaah Zergs have it rough they've only won more titles than everyone in the modern era.
:p
Making the OSL post as we speak. Take Jaedong away, and the entire statistics will be changed for his race than any other player out there in the modern era. That was the point I was trying to make. Don't pretend otherwise, terrans have always been the dominating race in Starcraft ever since the 1.08 patch, and is least affected even if you take away the player of the highest score within the race. Jaedong just happens to be awesome enough to keep the zerg race even statistically. Keep in mind that OSL has an Ro36 format instead of the Ro32 format of the MSL when you make the statistic. holy crap you are a broken record. You just stated that Bisu had the same impact in the overall scheme of things with my little rating system. Why are you saying I'm pretending Jaedong isn't great? You keep shoving words down my throat in defense of Jaedong, I've never said anything bad about Jaedong. You are really mad at something and it shouldn't be me, so I suggest you leave me be. The statistic will scale fine, by the way. I start with the group stages which are the tournament proper. OSL pre Ro16 is a big changing mess each season anyway, especially with the match fixing scandal and ACE recruitment and blaaaah. Why can't you deal with your own stastics being thrown at your face? Zergs have not been dominating the post-Savior era, and if it appears to be so, it's the power of Jaedong. What part of the total number of points being relied upon one player more so than any other race don't you get? Haha you're gonna fucking love the OSL stats Haven't seen it, but I guess Jaedong's great success in it, coupled with the lack of success from protoss have made your argument that zergs have wiped the floor with everybody in recent years more convincing? It's not just the individual leagues I'm talking about here. Check the Proleague stastics, check out the number of terran players overall, be it top ranked Kespa players, or simply in the Proleague rosters. Wipe that. Just take all the televised games in recent years and see which race has won the most. I haven't checked any of these, but I'm pretty sure most of it will have terran in front of the other two races. Haha why do you even post? All of your posts just say "terran is imba but because of JAEDONG MY HERO zerg looks okay. I refuse to back this up in any way but STOP DENYING IT!" Do you think this is a normal way to try to prove a point? I think sc2 whining has bled into bw -_- Time to back my theory up. 1) Since the start of the 2007 season (not the year 2007), YGOSU records the following: TvT 1883 matches ZvZ 1777 matches PvP 1320 matches TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour ZvP 2325 : 1915 in zerg’s favour PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races Zerg is 4636 : 4547 overall against other races Protoss is 4228 : 4419 overall against other races Terran’s have won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran also happens to be the most played mirror in the game. 2) This is how the record is changed if we count Kespa officiated matches only: TvT 1038 matches ZvZ 782 matches PvP 633 matches TvZ 892 : 753 in terran’s favour ZvP 694 : 617 in zerg’s favour PvT 802 : 737 in protoss’s favour Terran is 1629 : 1555 overall against other races Zerg is 1447 : 1509 overall against other races Protoss is 1419 : 1431 overall against other races Terran is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror in the game. 3) This is how the record is changed if we count Proleague matches only: TvT 742 matches ZvZ 601 matches PvP 490 matches TvZ 486 : 399 in terran’s favour ZvP 424 : 375 in zerg’s favour PvT 462 : 429 in protoss’s favour Terran is 915 : 828 overall against other races Zerg is 823 : 861 overall against other races Protoss is 837 : 853 overall against other races Terran has again won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. 4) This is how the record is changed if we count individual league matches only: TvT 208 matches ZvZ 136 matches PvP 129 matches TvZ 250 : 249 in zerg’s favour ZvP 185 : 148 in zerg’s favour PvT 244 : 214 in protoss’s favour Terran is 463 : 494 overall against other races Zerg is 435 : 397 overall against other races Protoss is 392 : 399 overall against other races Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive overall record in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran remains the most played mirror. Zerg is the only race that happens to have a positive record in both their match-ups. I guess this is where the consensus that zergs have dominated the other races in recent years stems from. Considering how much individual league statistics are influenced due to the nature of brackets, the relatively small amount of gaming pool and greater number of games played at higher stages (Bo3, Bo5), it’s not a far fetched thing to say that the might of a few players do change the overall appearance of things in my opinion. I’m just claiming the obvious here, nothing against the common consensus of any well reasoned follower of the progaming scene. How my opinion that terrans are still the most dominating race in the progaming scene, and that the results of individual leagues are swayed greatly by the most successful gamer of our era is somehow so far stretched that it borders on insane ramblings of a blind fanboy is beyond me. Are you kidding me? Divide your own data here: TvZ : 53.25% Terran Favor ZvP : 54.83% Zerg Favor PvT : 52.48% Protoss Favor Combined: Favor in good + (1-Favor) in bad T : 0.5325+(1-0.5248) = 1.0077 Z : 0.5483+(1-0.5325) = 1.0158 P : 0.5248+(1-0.5483) = 0.9765 A) TvZ isn't the most imba matchup by this data B) We're talking 2.48-4.83% imbalance in matchups, is this so insurmountable as to complain this much? C) Using this rough combined metric (seems plausible to me) things are god damn balanced, but if you want to split hairs Z has it better than T by some insignificant margin. Do not take away from this: Z is imba Do take from this: Nobody is imba, Toss needs a little love, STFU with Terran imba garbage Edit: This is the kespa+nonkespa data. I'm at work so I cant run the other numbers now. What part of terran players participating in more televised matches, having more victories and having less defeats despite the greater number of games in non-mirror match-ups don't you get? Why do you think I bothered to list the number of mirror match-ups? Do you think it's a coincidence that terran versus terran happens to be the most played mirror in the scene at every level imaginable? Is it a simple flip of the coin that terran players have represented their team far more than the other two races? The greater the pool of games we take, the more dominant the terran presence becomes. It's not just about the winning ratio, although it's interesting that you decided to present it as an average of the winning ratio between the two non-mirror match-ups, when I thought a simple calculation of the actual number of games won and games lost in non-mirror match-ups would have been sufficient. There are plenty of other factors to consider, a few of which I have mentioned above. I find myself repeating the same thing ad infinitum here, and I hope this will be the last time I mention this. Terrans have pretty much always have been the race to be in the progaming scene. The difference is not much, but it is substantial enough for most people to have noticed. It didn't matter which statistic you took, be it the number of individual leagues won, number of televised matches won, the number of top ranked players, the overall winning ratio in televised matches etc. However, terran superiority over the other two races (however slight it is, it was there) has become less significant in recent years, especially in the individual league with the success of some select few individuals, with Jaedong, being by far the most noticable. It does not change the fact, that terran players today, are still the most played, most trusted by the coaches, most successful in terms of the number of games won in the scene. To claim that zerg as a whole race, have dominated the scene in recent years seemed to me the arguments of someone who got a little too overwhelmed by the number of individual league trophies taken by zerg in recent years. Surely, it had a lot to do with the individual success of the most successful player of our era. I don't see what was so sacrilegious about my argument.
Perhaps there are more Terran players than others? Maybe that's why there are more mirror matchups. Infact that I remember there ARE more terrans than the other two races, that's why mirror matchups are pointless to look at. Why are there more terrans? Probably because Boxer, Oov, and Nada. Terran used to be terribly op or at least all the good players were terran for some reason, it isn't anymore.
I didn't save the data but % for kespa only support your claim, it was something like 52% for PvT and ZvP and 54% for TvZ. Again at work. The fact of the matter is a difference as small as 2-4% in a single matchup is so incredibly small.
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On August 13 2010 04:47 Letmelose wrote:
Time to back my theory up.
1) Since the start of the 2007 season (not the year 2007), YGOSU records the following:
TvT 1883 matches
ZvZ 1777 matches
PvP 1320 matches
TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour
ZvP 2325 : 1915 in zerg’s favour
PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour
Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races
Zerg is 4636 : 4547 overall against other races
Protoss is 4228 : 4419 overall against other races
Terran’s have won the most, and lost the least in non-mirror match-ups. Terran versus terran also happens to be the most played mirror in the game.
Let me ask just one thing here. See that bolded section?
So you said:
TvZ 2632 : 2311 in terran’s favour
PvT 2313 : 2094 in protoss’s favour
If I add that up... and please tell me if I'm doing something wrong
Terran win/loss vs other races: (2632 + 2094 : 2311 + 2313) = 4726 : 4624
And yet you state... "Terran is 4726 : 4405 overall against other races"
Okay. Either something is really wrong with what I've done (please enlighten me), or YGOSU adding programs are screwed up, or... your math sucks. Where did 4405 come out of??
As it stands, 4726 : 4624 seems MUCH MORE reasonable to me.
I haven't read any of the rest of your argument but if I see something equally questionable I'll ask it here.
EDIT 1:
Why do you CONSTANTLY state that TvT is the most played MU? How does that affect anything? It merely shows that Terran is the singular most popular race, completely unsurprising since Boxer is the leading figure in SC. In fact, I think that answers MORE questions that degrade your argument: since Terran is more popular, it naturally affects more "skilled players" as per the rules of proportion, and when those "skilled players" become progamers, more of them end up being Terrans (proportionally speaking vs Zerg & Toss). As a result, it makes perfect sense that TvT always remains the most popular MU, and I don't understand how that's supposed to help your argument.
EDIT 2:
So you basically proved, with your point # 4, that Zergs have been dominating over Terrans (and Toss) in the individual leagues as per the timescale that you chose. Doesn't that single point disprove your entire argument? Let's assume Terran WAS imba (Proof by contradiction). Then how can it not show in a huge part of the proscene (individual leagues)?? And not only does it not show, Zergs were extremely dominant according to your stats. If you assumption was correct, then the imba trend should manifest itself in what we consider to be literally HALF (or greater, to some people) of Professional Starcraft, and Zerg shouldn't have been SO dominant.
EDIT 3:
I have a key concern with your "methodology". You say Terrans have been more "dominant/imba" simply due to a difference in win differential; Terrans have positive wins, while the others might have negative, etc.
However, this methodology is, to me, clearly faulty in some cases. Let's look at your Point # 1 (after we fix your ridiculously-well-placed math error). As stated in EDIT 1, Terrans make up a larger proportion of gamers (due to popularity, or whatever). Using laws of probability, their difference in wins/losses SHOULD be larger than the difference of other races; the PERCENT PROBABILITY should remain the same/constant. Let's see:
Win/loss difference for Terrans: 102
Win/loss difference for Zergs: 89
Let's take the number of TvT's & ZvZ's: (1883 & 1777) as an estimate test proportion number for the number of Terrans/Zergs. 102/1883 = 0.054. 89/1777 = 0.05. That means if we assume a test population of equal numbers of T & Z (say, 1000 each), that means the win differential for Terrans should be 54, and the one for Zergs should be 50.
That's like... nothing. Barely any difference. How is that supposed to help your point?
The only thing I get from seeing your stats is that... wow... Protoss is getting raped by Zergs...
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EPT
