Flash vs Bisu Bisu and Flash have had a good history of producing good games from the start. I remember when everyone hated Flash because he fucking cheesed the shit outta Bisu and knocked him out of the OSL. Nowadays, Flash never cheeses and is more known as a "gay fucking turtler". If you haven't seen the flowcharts in the Day 1 thread, you should do so, because that basically sums up Flash's play. "Can I survive early/mid game? Yes? Then win". Anyways, with Bisu coming off a rather shaky PvT set that he lost to Iris, the fact that he had to cheese his couple of wins shows his lack of confidence in the matchup. With that being said, he draws some decently favorable maps for him, and with Flash's lack of TvP play lately, Bisu should be doing that picture pose once again after today's games. 2-1 Bisu.
Jaedong vs Kwanro This write up needs no explanation. Kwanro is a mediocre zerg who keeps getting lucky because his opponents either 1) Screw up (Leta) or 2) Suck (Zero). Jaedong does neither, and we'll see Jaedong advance to the next round with ease. 2-0 JvZ. One of the easiest Liquibets I've made in my life.
Fantastic play from both sides, from Flash basically having Bisu contained in game 1 and Bisu breaking out to some fantastic micro from Bisu in game 3 to survive Flash's push.
One epic set incoming, with the other being a lopsided rape. And since this happens to be my 3000th post, I've added a little bonus snippet article to the OP. Ooo, High Templar.
Yes, throughout the years, we've had a fair share of KPop within the realm of SC. From Rock singing Big Bang's Last Farewell to Perfectman's 2PM ceremony, KPop has left its mark on the Starcraft scene. Here's a short snippet of Rock's incredible singing skills:
In recent years, KPop artists have come to SC venues such as the OSL finals and PL finals just to sing and cheer for our players. From the Wonder Girls to Son Dambi to SNSD, Starcraft's had its share of the best in the KPop business. While this next song wasn't necessarily sung at the PL Finals, it might as well have because it fits the theme of Starcraft soo well. Gee Gee Gee Gee Baby Baby
We've even see our fair share of progamers perform ceremonies from KPop songs and even mimic dances. We've seen Bisu's Sorry Sorry to Perfectman's I Hate You to Flower/Zeus' Tell Me rendition. It seems that the rest of OZ besides JD spends too much time practicing their KPop dances instead of practicing. But they sure are entertaining. For entertainment purposes, OZ's rendition of Tell Me with a JD bonus.
And well, it's only fitting for progamers to be fans of KPop, especially of girl groups and such. Even Sea's a fan. DoctorK and Fantasy have also spoken out on the topic, with DoctorK being an avid WGs fan. I remember him telling Best, "Take me to EVER OSL finals if you make it there". Indeed, the Wonder Girls were at EVER to perform for Best and July. And while the sound system wasn't the best, at least you could mute and enjoy the show.
Followed by EVER's poor sound system disaster, OSL organizers smartened up and well let Son Dambi lipsync her crazy chair dance performance at Incruit. That's good, cause the performance was 50x better. Anyways, here's Son Dambi at Incruit:
However, PL organizers didn't wisen up, and instead we were stuck with SNSD singing into bad mics at the Proleague Final. Whatever, bad mics happen, but the show still continues. Just hit mute and enjoy.
Over the years, we've had many KPop performances and whatnot, but not much can trump MBC's epic karaoke. From Sea's pretty awful singing to Bisu's even worse singing to our Golden Mouse winner trying to hurl out lyrics, these moments are quite priceless. So with that, I leave you with MBC's karaoke night:
Truthfully, I've missed these pregame opening ceremonies at these SL finals. Even though the Wonder Girls sucked, they were still entertaining to watch. Plus listening to the fanboys in the crowd scream is just epic. With that, I'm gonna end this mini thread. Here's hoping to some good games tonight at WCG.
LOL kpop... Well the only good thing that comes with kpop and starcraft comming together once in a while is that it confirms that starcraft maintains its position as one of the leading "sports" in korea. Besides that the only reason they come and perform at those OSL's and stuff is because e sports hires them to get more ppl to come to the events. And the only reason those pro gamers sing kpop is cuz kpop is fundamental to like EVERY korean
I bet Roffles will change his mind about Kwanro if he beats Jaedong. My predictions,
Flash beats Bisu either 2-0 or 2-1 mainly because Flash's TvP>Bisu's PvT
Jaedong vs Kwanro is a tossup. To be honest I would like to see Kwanro win just to see a possible Flash vs Kwanro matchup, that way Flash gets his revenge.
I told a WFbrood administrator to remove the chat from their WCGlive page. There was a lot of Chinese viewers because the WCGlive page uses our channel. So maybe I could keep chat on longer.
On August 27 2009 11:53 cosiant wrote: Bisu still hasn't lost vs Terran on Destination, so I think he will take it, and he will cheese on HBR, as usual.
Don't worry. It won't reach HBR because he's going to get owned by turtle Flash on ROTK.
On August 27 2009 15:59 MrHoon wrote: man can you imagine a shitstorm if Kwanro gets JD?
Very unlikely to happen though... I hope
This WCG is getting really hard for me now. I have no idea who to root for since they're all my favorite players
Root for Flash. Hasn't been to WCG yet, so it's about time! And Korea needs a T representative since Fantasy couldn't pull through in his pet match up vs Stork's pet match up.
On August 27 2009 15:59 MrHoon wrote: man can you imagine a shitstorm if Kwanro gets JD?
Very unlikely to happen though... I hope
This WCG is getting really hard for me now. I have no idea who to root for since they're all my favorite players
Root for Flash. Hasn't been to WCG yet, so it's about time! And Korea needs a T representative since Fantasy couldn't pull through in his pet match up vs Stork's pet match up.
yeah this swarm season is getting really boring now
I'd rather watch the 6 Dragon age over and over again.
Awww... either way, these games should be hella epic. CANNOT WAIT for Bisu vs Flash. It would have been more entertaining for it to be Bisu vs Kwanro and JD vs Flash... but gonna be baller status no matter what.
Awesome.. Bisu, Flash and Jaedong playing the same night. We couldnt ask for more (maybe Bisu vs Flash and Jaedong vs Fantasy on the same night but still)
I just want see this NOW. Go Jaedong! And Flash!
Fuck Bisu u to.. lol I just hope that Kwanro doesnt win (idk the mindstate of JD right now with all of the FA thing) =D
nice lineup of games tonight... i hope the players will make it exciting enough that the commentators will not be bored when they say GG like the last few games...
Bisu gonna run straight into a red-hot Flash... i wonder if Flash's really got the winning formula this time around...
plus I hope JD got to practice for his match and not just be sitting around waiting for his FA to resolve itself...
On August 27 2009 18:27 Shikyo wrote: Flash is good at cheeses and turtling. He's not that good at midgame harrass and aggression.
Actually his dropship harass used to be quite good, but lately he doesn't use it much. Not that he needs it anyway iirc in his games vs shuttle , he used early dropship +2 tanks, was it on RotK?
lol @ the pop lip singers. Guess after all the works done in the studio the only thing left is to look good and dance around on the stage throwing random winks out at the audience.
Anyways, hoping for Flash/JD. games are gonna be fun to watch
On August 27 2009 18:20 Assymptotic wrote: I believe Bisu is 6-0 versus Terran on Destination. Let's see if Flash can change that.
Bisu only barely beat Flash when they were on Destination last time. He was on the ropes, but Flash didn't notice three DTs running amuck on his tanks/SCVs.
On August 27 2009 18:24 CUBAe-Sports wrote: Flash cheese = failure
Tell that to Stork.
Or Bisu?
That said, Flash hasn't really cheese TvP for a long time now.
last time it was in winners league, he went bio and totally destroyed some p who went fast DTs on andromeda. Then he lost to Upmagic in next game and his mini-slump began.
On August 27 2009 18:20 Assymptotic wrote: I believe Bisu is 6-0 versus Terran on Destination. Let's see if Flash can change that.
Bisu only barely beat Flash when they were on Destination last time. He was on the ropes, but Flash didn't notice three DTs running amuck on his tanks/SCVs.
Kay thanks, because there's 950 on Solin's livestream right now and it's quite agitating when it's not even posted here and there's that many. Fucking PLU and YY and WFBrood.
I think Flash might do his 1 fact expand into 2 fact tank/vult pressure with a quick 3rd. Or maybe he'll actually change up his style and go FE --> port.
12 Nex what a surprise (given yesterday and the new tendency of PvT) Maybe Flash does a bunker rush cus with bisu on 7 he can get the probes that he makes from that nex
I'm sure almost everyone knows this but Flash walls that way so rines can fit through. Makes it easier to harass the harassing units..if that makes sense. Forcing more attention to goons.
Flash making sure his cc isn't scouted to keep Bisu wary of 2 fact. Bisu wisely going 1 gate expand...guess hes seen flash's last ohh 50 tvps or so where he fast expanded lol
CC floating over now, siege finished. Bisu blocks off one of his two bridges and almost has his robo finished. Academy is done for flash as is armoury.
Citadel and observatory done for bisu, and he drops archives and stargate for arbs. The quick second gas will help there. Flash puts down his second factory now. Bisu wary about drops and has some goons in main.
Bisu seems to be going 2 base arb. DT drop would not be surprising as well.
Flash grabbed armory/acad but is also getting second fact. Either he is taking a safer 3rd or he's going to do his 3 fact -> take 3rd + 4th + middle build.
There it is! Recalllll at the bridge second nat. Flash's mines get some units, he pulls scvs and reacts instantly with his army. Clearing the recall very nicely.
Another arb going around the right side. Another recall but mines take out a huge junk of the army. Really risky move by bisu there and he paid for it as the recall is sweeped clean in no time.
Bisu taking 9 now, just eating up the map. Commentator talking about hallucination to get by the turrets. Bisu recalls again, but again Flash saves his scv and CC. Not worth it at all.
Recall into Flash's nat! Mass goons there, but sim city makes it hard to maneuver. Flash using reinforcements to clear that out while pushing ahead to Bisu's territory. Nice stasis but Flash still pushing!
Flash clears out his nat without losing his scv. Flash with an army below the P main but unless he can reinforce it will get whittled away. Flash kills an arb, trying to set up in front of the P bridges.
Flash chooses to hold his nat with reenforcements and take this opportunity to push aggresively. Bisu is ready with some great statis and takes out a chunk of the terran army.
Flash has position near the bridges but bisu is on 5 base ..and flash's army on the map is not very large...
Bisu with crazy money now, nice stasis to prevent 9 from dying, but not enough gates for P. He also needs to re rally them as his units are dying one at a time.
Flash's decision making and game sense were unreal.
Unfortunately his EMP's sucked, but more importantly, he never made a 4th base and basically went allin. No idea why, had he just taken 3 he would've been in such a great position.
Bisu's 2 gates at 9, just like in their last match, was really key to saving that expansion and the game.
On August 27 2009 19:22 Manifesto7 wrote: Wow, Bisu clears out Flash's army, crazy. 4k well spent. Flash just cant keep up, bisu dropped extra gates and just powered up.
(to those who are talking about 4k in the bank, it is because he over expanded and under gated).
Flash needs to expand again soon. His main is done and he hasnt taken 7 at all.
It's obvious what he did to get there, I was just commenting on the fact that he in fact WAS there I'd see the point in banking ~1,5-2k there considering the situation, but I was really surprised at seeing his min coutner hit 4,8k at one point. That was alarming.
On August 27 2009 19:24 blue_arrow wrote: also that game was like stork vs fantasy, cept flash doesn't have as good micro while bisu had better macro
I think that terran doesn't have anything microable that is easy to spot.
I mean there's vulture sniping, goliaths targetting arbiters, and aiming tanks to maximize splash damage... Unlike protoss where there is stasis, storm, zealots -> tanks, etc. Protoss micro is more noticable.
On August 27 2009 19:25 Ver wrote: Flash's decision making and game sense were unreal.
Unfortunately his EMP's sucked, but more importantly, he never made a 4th base and basically went allin. No idea why, had he just taken 3 he would've been in such a great position.
Bisu's 2 gates at 9, just like in their last match, was really key to saving that expansion and the game.
Its so so hard to defend your 4th base on dest while pushing. Lots of routes around your push to counter your expo.
On August 27 2009 19:26 blue_arrow wrote: i considered bisu's rapid expoing kinda risky... that prbly wouldn't have worked against more aggressive terrans like fantasy
Like after Flash destroyed Bisu's second recall without taking any damage he imo could easily have taken the base at 3. Then he started bringing his army to his nat because he was expecting a recall there, and when it came there he decided to counter with his tanks. Really weird.
All game I thought Flash knew something I didn't, and it seemed like he might turn it around, but Bisu's econ advantage eventually won out anyway. No vulture harass at all even though Bisu was still expanding like a fiend... bleh.
On August 27 2009 19:28 Vasoline73 wrote: Maps are not awful for Flash coming up. 2-1 isn't likely, but at least he's not playing Outsider and Medusa or something.
Naw I'd rather have Flash play on Medusa than ROTK lol
On August 27 2009 19:28 Vasoline73 wrote: Maps are not awful for Flash coming up. 2-1 isn't likely, but at least he's not playing Outsider and Medusa or something.
Naw I'd rather have Flash play on Medusa than ROTK lol
On August 27 2009 19:24 blue_arrow wrote: also that game was like stork vs fantasy, cept flash doesn't have as good micro while bisu had better macro
I think that terran doesn't have anything microable that is easy to spot.
I mean there's vulture sniping, goliaths targetting arbiters, and aiming tanks to maximize splash damage... Unlike protoss where there is stasis, storm, zealots -> tanks, etc. Protoss micro is more noticable.
don't forget moving vults in place to lay mines, spacing tanks out perfectly during pushes, emps, def matrices
i'd actually consider those that i listed as the most vital micro -.-
also, though flash did not have dships this game, fantasy displayed amazing dship use against stork that basically held off his amazing macro for so long
On August 27 2009 19:22 MrHoon wrote: ??????? I don't understand
"OH FLASH RUNNING IN HES GONNA DO SOMETHING DTs DONT DO MUCH"
"okay flash lose lol"
exactly! one minute it seems like flash is way ahead and then the next, they're expecting gg from flash. LOL
It was because Bisu somehow couldn't clear Flash force in front of his bridges. If flash reinforced with vults and mines, 9 and 10 would go down, giving Flash a good chance winning the game.
I'm really impressed Bisu fended the 2/1 timing push considering his first two recalls. He had basically no leverage on Flash, since he knew another recall couldn't be coming that soon, so he could basically roll his entire army out without hesitation.
On August 27 2009 19:24 blue_arrow wrote: also that game was like stork vs fantasy, cept flash doesn't have as good micro while bisu had better macro
I think that terran doesn't have anything microable that is easy to spot.
I mean there's vulture sniping, goliaths targetting arbiters, and aiming tanks to maximize splash damage... Unlike protoss where there is stasis, storm, zealots -> tanks, etc. Protoss micro is more noticable.
don't forget moving vults in place to lay mines, spacing tanks out perfectly during pushes, emps, def matrices
i'd actually consider those that i listed as the most vital micro -.-
also, though flash did not have dships this game, fantasy displayed amazing dship use against stork that basically held off his amazing macro for so long
vital, yes.
spectacularly noticeable? not so much.
From purely a spectator standpoint, it looks like protoss has all the cards, and terran can just sit back and watch whether he wins or loses.
On August 27 2009 19:26 blue_arrow wrote: i considered bisu's rapid expoing kinda risky... that prbly wouldn't have worked against more aggressive terrans like fantasy
You mean like it didn't work for both Kal and Stork against Fantasy on Destination?
On August 27 2009 19:24 blue_arrow wrote: also that game was like stork vs fantasy, cept flash doesn't have as good micro while bisu had better macro
I think that terran doesn't have anything microable that is easy to spot.
I mean there's vulture sniping, goliaths targetting arbiters, and aiming tanks to maximize splash damage... Unlike protoss where there is stasis, storm, zealots -> tanks, etc. Protoss micro is more noticable.
don't forget moving vults in place to lay mines, spacing tanks out perfectly during pushes, emps, def matrices
i'd actually consider those that i listed as the most vital micro -.-
also, though flash did not have dships this game, fantasy displayed amazing dship use against stork that basically held off his amazing macro for so long
vital, yes.
spectacularly noticeable? not so much.
From purely a spectator standpoint, it looks like protoss has all the cards, and terran can just sit back and watch whether he wins or loses.
Terran micro not noticeable? Try laying mines and sieging tanks. If you don't notice that, well wow.
On August 27 2009 19:24 blue_arrow wrote: also that game was like stork vs fantasy, cept flash doesn't have as good micro while bisu had better macro
I think that terran doesn't have anything microable that is easy to spot.
I mean there's vulture sniping, goliaths targetting arbiters, and aiming tanks to maximize splash damage... Unlike protoss where there is stasis, storm, zealots -> tanks, etc. Protoss micro is more noticable.
don't forget moving vults in place to lay mines, spacing tanks out perfectly during pushes, emps, def matrices
i'd actually consider those that i listed as the most vital micro -.-
also, though flash did not have dships this game, fantasy displayed amazing dship use against stork that basically held off his amazing macro for so long
vital, yes.
spectacularly noticeable? not so much.
From purely a spectator standpoint, it looks like protoss has all the cards, and terran can just sit back and watch whether he wins or loses.
well i as a spectator noticed that flash didn't space his tanks out, didn't surround bisu's army with his vults properly so that mines could be layed effectively, and few matrices and emps being cast... also all of this might have to be done right as youre engaging toss armies, which is what fantasy demonstrated terrifically, but again which flash didn't show, so far
maybe flash's performance today so far just pales in comparison to what fantasy demonstrated yesterday, so maybe thats why i'm seeing so many of the things that flash isnt doing. iunno
On August 27 2009 19:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: That was so close to being essentially perfect play by flash that game against the build he was playing against.
On August 27 2009 19:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: That was so close to being essentially perfect play by flash that game against the build he was playing against.
?? I did not see any flaw in Flash's play just maybe not getting rid of that scouting probe before landing rax and CC.
On August 27 2009 19:41 Shikyo wrote: Even if it hadn't been as good of a timing, Bisu was still only on 2 bases... It's puzzling how he didn't have enough units off 2base.
he added the gates way too late. He expected a fast armory from Flash because, well to be honest flash is very predictable.
T1 tosses needs to stop doing 2-base arbiters. People can figure these things out. This is why Stork is the king of PvT. He adjust his builds in-game accordingly.
On August 27 2009 19:41 Shikyo wrote: Even if it hadn't been as good of a timing, Bisu was still only on 2 bases... It's puzzling how he didn't have enough units off 2base.
On August 27 2009 19:41 Shikyo wrote: Even if it hadn't been as good of a timing, Bisu was still only on 2 bases... It's puzzling how he didn't have enough units off 2base.
On August 27 2009 19:39 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: That was so close to being essentially perfect play by flash that game against the build he was playing against.
?? I did not see any flaw in Flash's play just maybe not getting rid of that scouting probe before landing rax and CC.
Thats what I'm saying. It was as perfect as humanly possible. I assume theres no such thing as an abolute 100% perfect game. It was great.
On August 27 2009 19:43 ret wrote: I fucking knew bisu was going to 12 nexus. and I really thought Flash would know too and would bbs. sadly flash is worse than me at bw.
On August 27 2009 19:42 baubo wrote: T1 tosses needs to stop doing 2-base arbiters. People can figure these things out. This is why Stork is the king of PvT. He adjust his builds in-game accordingly.
? It worked great first game, as Flash wasn't perfect in his recall defence, but that is expected.
On August 27 2009 19:43 ret wrote: I fucking knew bisu was going to 12 nexus. and I really thought Flash would know too and would bbs. sadly flash is worse than me at bw.
On August 27 2009 19:43 ret wrote: I fucking knew bisu was going to 12 nexus. and I really thought Flash would know too and would bbs. sadly flash is worse than me at bw.
keke, he never cheeses anymore are you going to strema later?
bisu is going to take this 2-1, the rush distance on this map is too big and flash just pulled 6 scvs for no result since bisu was able to deny the bunker rush
On August 27 2009 19:47 blue_arrow wrote: i'm like 90% sure it's because of the massive number of chinese viewers, i'm guessing there are at least 2.5k of them
On August 27 2009 19:48 benjammin wrote: it amazes me how quickly people think they are owed something that's free, stop complaining about the lag jeesh
Its not that, it's just were so into this and the game is so tense were freaking out cause we want to see what happens next, haha
On August 27 2009 19:47 blue_arrow wrote: i'm like 90% sure it's because of the massive number of chinese viewers, i'm guessing there are at least 2.5k of them
Flash's cut scvs are really adding up now. Bisu pulling further and further ahead. Amazing play by Bisu. Truly S class goon micro to handle flashs mine use like that.
I predict a huge number of terrans that will say imba, although if Flash microed better with his rines it might be different, as well as if Bisu lost a bunch of goons to mines.
I honestly thought Bisu played pretty badly after the initial great micro. He was over 1k minerals while off 2 bases, so early... Of course, he didn't need to play well with the advantage he had. Same as in game 1.
Great games only game that could have been better was game 3 with Flash's failed bunker rush, but we got to see a very exciting last ditch attack by Flash.
On August 27 2009 19:54 phrixus wrote: how humiliating
what was humiliating about that? losing to the best protoss player ever... there's no shame in that
Flash lost that lol. Bisu just did the optimal strategy and Flash somehow forgot that you can't scv/rine/vult rush the 12 Nexus on that map. That's two game costing decisions he made tonight
He had to allin or play really really turtlish from that spot but HBR is such an unforgiving map the allin was sensible. Still he should've never attempted that rush.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
this is sooo hilarious! two thumbs up (although i'm a bisu fanboy) lol
i'm glad that bisu won although my LB was for flash... bisu proved to the coins that they're wrong!!! (note: my LB for this match was based on toss coins)
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
On August 27 2009 19:54 integral wrote: even if flash killed that whole army, which he didn't, he was still behind....
No, had he successfully killed the goon in front of bisu's nat, he would continually rally vults, siege up with turrets, and take down Bisu's nat. If bisu opted for faster gates with later 3rd, Flash would have been crushed, but Bisu going 2base arb off of 2 gates allowed Flash to have a chance.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
you guess wrong, i wasnt talking about PvT only, and yeah, Stork played damn well as well
On August 27 2009 19:54 integral wrote: even if flash killed that whole army, which he didn't, he was still behind....
No, had he successfully killed the goon in front of bisu's nat, he would continually rally vults, siege up with turrets, and take down Bisu's nat. If bisu opted for faster gates with later 3rd, Flash would have been crushed, but Bisu going 2base arb off of 2 gates allowed Flash to have a chance.
I meant the whole army right before he GGed, but thanks for correcting something I didn't say
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Running into mines is a mistake, but so is not making a deeper decision or macroing properly. It's just that viewers can only see one of the two obviously. Stork running into mines in a game in which a lot is going on does not necessarily make him worse at PvT than Bisu, just because Bisu microed perfectly against mines in a game where that was the ONLY thing going on.
Stork is the best PvT player ever and deserves more PvT respect than he gets these days. He's always been better than Bisu at playing precision Protoss - it's just that Bisu's multitasking and overall APM has now gotten to a point where he can just be overpowering. Even now, with Bisu the slightly superior PvT player, it's still clear to me that Stork has a deeper understanding of the matchup.
Yeah honestly, after seeing the 12 nex Flash should have played standard on that map. Unlike Destination, I think he would have a great shot at taking Bisu down. The map is great for defense/push to expansions like Flash plays.
Oh well, congrats to Bisu who will wtfpwn every foreigner at WCG . Although I would have loved to see Idra v Flash or something haha.
On August 27 2009 19:54 integral wrote: even if flash killed that whole army, which he didn't, he was still behind....
No, had he successfully killed the goon in front of bisu's nat, he would continually rally vults, siege up with turrets, and take down Bisu's nat. If bisu opted for faster gates with later 3rd, Flash would have been crushed, but Bisu going 2base arb off of 2 gates allowed Flash to have a chance.
I meant the whole army right before he GGed, but thanks for correcting something I didn't say
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Running into mines is a mistake, but so is not making a deeper decision or macroing properly. It's just that viewers can only see one of the two obviously. Stork running into mines in a game in which a lot is going on does not necessarily make him worse at PvT than Bisu, just because Bisu microed perfectly against mines in a game where that was the ONLY thing going on.
Stork is the best PvT player ever and deserves more PvT respect than he gets these days. He's always been better than Bisu at playing precision Protoss - it's just that Bisu's multitasking and overall APM has now gotten to a point where he can just be overpowering. Even now, with Bisu the slightly superior PvT player, it's still clear to me that Stork has a deeper understanding of the matchup.
In the most I agree but I would still call Stork the better PvTer, worse mechanics and all. Bisu is better in PvZ and PvP but his PvT has never been as strong as Khans toss's IMO.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Running into mines is a mistake, but so is not making a deeper decision or macroing properly. It's just that viewers can only see one of the two obviously. Stork running into mines in a game in which a lot is going on does not necessarily make him worse at PvT than Bisu, just because Bisu microed perfectly against mines in a game where that was the ONLY thing going on.
Stork is the best PvT player ever and deserves more PvT respect than he gets these days. He's always been better than Bisu at playing precision Protoss - it's just that Bisu's multitasking and overall APM has now gotten to a point where he can just be overpowering. Even now, with Bisu the slightly superior PvT player, it's still clear to me that Stork has a deeper understanding of the matchup.
It was somewhat of a joke comment. T____T
I hope you knew that.
Also, Itachii was talking about perfection and execution of actions, not the understanding and knowledge behind the match-up.
On August 27 2009 20:03 Baddieko wrote: Stork is the only toss can win PvT with a base down and wasting units. Others need to be a base up instead, huge difference.
Nothing personal, but it's just because you are KHAN fan maybe?
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Yeah although the 2(~3 later) in the beginning at his nat was horrible, he focused macroing. Stork can micro like Bisu if he was in that same situation. Today's game 3 is nothing like yesterday's game 1.
Also, Bisu did have some luck in the perfect number of goons vs Flash's number of vults, because he's not individually giving commands, but just move+hold (or attacks, but doubt it). Whether Bisu mastered goon AI to the point of understanding auto-target I don't know, but Stork could have done the same feat.
On August 27 2009 19:57 integral wrote: holy fuck this slow motion replay
Yeah, the slow-motion shows how unreal Bisu's micro was. Controlling 6 goons in two separate groups, sniping two mines at a time as they are laid? Amazing.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Running into mines is a mistake, but so is not making a deeper decision or macroing properly. It's just that viewers can only see one of the two obviously. Stork running into mines in a game in which a lot is going on does not necessarily make him worse at PvT than Bisu, just because Bisu microed perfectly against mines in a game where that was the ONLY thing going on.
Stork is the best PvT player ever and deserves more PvT respect than he gets these days. He's always been better than Bisu at playing precision Protoss - it's just that Bisu's multitasking and overall APM has now gotten to a point where he can just be overpowering. Even now, with Bisu the slightly superior PvT player, it's still clear to me that Stork has a deeper understanding of the matchup.
In the most I agree but I would still call Stork the better PvTer, worse mechanics and all. Bisu is better in PvZ and PvP but his PvT has never been as strong as Khans toss's IMO.
not to mention stork could break terran tank's with goon/deal using the same food. Khan's toss would never be good in PvZ when they basically try to macro off anything.
On August 27 2009 19:56 Itachii wrote: Bisu's as close to perfection with toss as you can get, what would i give for his recent fpvod~~ guy's execution of actions is just insane.
as far as PvT goes..I guess you didnt see stork yesterday.
Stork ran into tons of mines if I recall correctly. Bisu is better than him.
Running into mines is a mistake, but so is not making a deeper decision or macroing properly. It's just that viewers can only see one of the two obviously. Stork running into mines in a game in which a lot is going on does not necessarily make him worse at PvT than Bisu, just because Bisu microed perfectly against mines in a game where that was the ONLY thing going on.
Stork is the best PvT player ever and deserves more PvT respect than he gets these days. He's always been better than Bisu at playing precision Protoss - it's just that Bisu's multitasking and overall APM has now gotten to a point where he can just be overpowering. Even now, with Bisu the slightly superior PvT player, it's still clear to me that Stork has a deeper understanding of the matchup.
It was somewhat of a joke comment. T____T
I hope you knew that.
Also, Itachii was talking about perfection and execution of actions, not the understanding and knowledge behind the match-up.
I know, I was just using it as a springboard into a more general comment about the differences in Stork v T and Bisu v T. They are very very different players (similar to how Flash v P and Fantasy v P are very different) and it's pretty interesting.
On August 27 2009 19:55 QibingZero wrote: I honestly thought Bisu played pretty badly after the initial great micro. He was over 1k minerals while off 2 bases, so early... Of course, he didn't need to play well with the advantage he had. Same as in game 1.
MIght wanna explain the comment about game 1? Bisu wasn't firmly ahead until he broke the push towards top left, which was basically what the entire game boiled down to.
On August 27 2009 20:03 Baddieko wrote: Stork is the only toss can win PvT with a base down and wasting units. Others need to be a base up instead, huge difference.
Nothing personal, but it's just because you are KHAN fan maybe?
On August 27 2009 20:11 .risingdragoon wrote: anyone who can read the game well or people who follow sc for a while know stork has the better pvt than bisu, not even funny
Well, I agree that Stork's understanding of PvT is far, far deeper than Bisu's. When Stork practices hard, he is probably still the best, but often times that's not the case and Bisu is better during those times because his overall mechanics and multitasking are so monstrous.
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Also Stork is better at just being really abusive and having a tight, mistake free game. He just doesn't lose vs bad Terrans, something Bisu cannot say.
Bisu on the other hand has a scarier lategame and is much better at strategically countering top players. There's a reason he's beaten Flash 2-1 twice now and Stork has lost 2-3 0-3 (pre-2008 games are invalid due to Flash being bad then).
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Goons, moved them away and hit hold position....
well, the chances for 3 good games are now officially down to zero. Jaedong completely destroyed kwanro. I don't think he will come back in the next game, he seems to be really pissed.
On August 27 2009 20:18 ATLAS-3.04 wrote: Lol, Jaedong. Could've ended it earlier by focusing on the spawning pool, but killing all of his drones is much more humiliating.
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Vultures, moved them away and hit hold position....
On August 27 2009 20:19 darktreb wrote: Jaedong's just playing out the string - qualifying for WCG so he can retire and play one last event even if he's semi-pro.
nothing's decided yet, dont spread BS arround unless i missed some news post explaining what will happen with JD
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Goons, moved them away and hit hold position....
fixed
haha man, hold position works if there's only one mine. Otherwise goons end up targeting different mines. There was some definite right-mouse click control by Bisu.
On August 27 2009 20:14 Sinedd wrote: dude ... what a hardcore fail
hahahahahaha
??
failed ramp block by Kwanro that was pretty ... sloppy
you know, its hard to block ramp with 2 lings vs 6
well yes of course but that wasnt even a good try by kwanro so ...
you know that jaedong hid 6 of his zerglings from kwanro's ovie, and kwanro saw 4 moving out so couldn't react properly. It was really clever play by the dong, literally nothing kwanro could do in that situation, tbh.
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Goons, moved them away and hit hold position....
IMO If you go for that kind of a build you must build your first factory at your natural.
Also, Jaedong knew the overlord timings and such pretty well it seems. Kwanro really had no idea until 10 lings were running up his ramp.
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Vultures, moved them away and hit hold position....
are you sure thats the sense ?
Yes, I mean that's the only way to do it. You can't individually target Mines at that scale so that's what players do. There might even be a little luck involved depending on the situation (though that game looked like Bisu just knew exactly how it was going to go). I'm not saying it's easy but that's what it is. Personally I am always more impressed by Probe/Zeal micro or any melee unit moving shot micro.
On August 27 2009 20:01 MrHoon wrote: and yes like Ret said, Flash failing to predict a Double Nex is just a really wtf moment
Oh well atleast Flash took a game
I mean it's kind of a 50/50 isn't it? Bisu knows that Flash knows that 12 Nex is really strong Heartbreak. But if you BBS and a Protoss as good as Bisu doesn't 12/14 Nex you are DONE - especially on a two player map means there's no scouting luck involved whatsoever.
Flash apparently didn't want to take that chance so he went for an 8 Rax push strat but just executed it terribly (losing that first Marine was pretty inexcusable). Bisu's Pylon blocking Flash's choke was also big because a Vulture could have gotten to that fight while it was still happening - as it turned out Vultures only got out after the initial skirmish.
Had Flash done a better job with his push it would have been a very different game. I don't think it's ever "obviously correct" to BBS because it's only impossible to stop if you 12/14 Nex.
I didn't see but if Flash really 8 raxed he made a really dumb move. I mean micro blah blah Bisu did nothing special that game. You simply can't rush the 12 nexus on that map because of a) distance and b) they can pylon block your vulture and you can't win with the rush at this distance without the vulture (not like you usually can anyway). It's really unbelievable Flash didn't know that.
So either he has to do some type of normal expansion build and attempt to get ahead by other means or proxy bbs. HBR is tough for T but it doesn't excuse Flash being really dumb about it.
Yes, the blocked Vulture really seals it, and that he didn't anticipate it surprised me too.
And as for Bisu's micro - it was perfect, but perfect in the sense that he took pairs of Goons, moved them away and hit hold position....
fixed
haha man, hold position works if there's only one mine. Otherwise goons end up targeting different mines. There was some definite right-mouse click control by Bisu.
Yeah he got most mines as they were going down/coming right back up. I guess in parts of that fight there were Vultures close enough too that he couldn't hold pos there either.
Kwanro is sooooo gonna get run over by Calm... he got beat on ling micro and his spore didnt even cover his nat's mineral line... nice defense, Kwanro...
On August 27 2009 20:32 jello24 wrote: Kwanro is sooooo gonna get run over by Calm... he got beat on ling micro and his spore didnt even cover his nat's mineral line... nice defense, Kwanro...
On August 27 2009 20:32 jello24 wrote: Kwanro is sooooo gonna get run over by Calm... he got beat on ling micro and his spore didnt even cover his nat's mineral line... nice defense, Kwanro...
... Calm?
Calm... MSL finals, remember that? happens this weekend.
It would have been pretty funny had Jaedong beat Calm in MSL semis, met Kwanro today in WCG, then again on Sunday at MSL finals. The whole thing would have been really anticlimatic.
On August 27 2009 20:32 jello24 wrote: Kwanro is sooooo gonna get run over by Calm... he got beat on ling micro and his spore didnt even cover his nat's mineral line... nice defense, Kwanro...
... Calm?
Calm... MSL finals, remember that? happens this weekend.
Ah read that as if Jaedong wil run over [Kwanro's nat]. My mistake.
The WCG and MSL finals are on the same day ▲ I wish they could change it if I make it to the finals. However, since I have a tough opponent to overcome in the Ro8, I don't think I need to worry about it right now.
Since WCG finals and MSL finals overlap, what would have happened had Kwanro won vs. Jaedong? (or Jaedong beat Calm in MSL semis and then beat Kwanro today)
On August 27 2009 20:39 JPaikman wrote: Since WCG finals and MSL finals overlap, what would have happened had Kwanro won vs. Jaedong? (or Jaedong beat Calm in MSL semis and then beat Kwanro today)
Would have moved one of them to like 18:30, I guess.
On August 27 2009 20:42 benjammin wrote: isn't it possible that kwanro might have been saving strategies / throwing the match to get in clam's head? or shell, as it were
Kwanro is a mediocre player. Jaedong basically rapes at JvZ. Kwanro can't even get the basics down. Way to place your nat spore out of mineral line reach. Good players don't make stupid mistakes like that.
On August 27 2009 20:42 benjammin wrote: isn't it possible that kwanro might have been saving strategies / throwing the match to get in clam's head? or shell, as it were
nOpe.
that was just pure rape. also that is a msl finalist, lol the dong strikes again.
On August 27 2009 20:48 Dice84 wrote: Jaedong vs Bisu looks very possible now. But then again.. that was suppose to happen numerous time but someone always terrorizes the bracket.
It would be somewhat ironic if it finally happens in the one final that really means nothing, and is in fact overshadowed by the 3rd place match.
On August 27 2009 20:03 Baddieko wrote: Stork is the only toss can win PvT with a base down and wasting units. Others need to be a base up instead, huge difference.
Nothing personal, but it's just because you are KHAN fan maybe?
A proper seeding system is waaaaay better than the crap that the MSL and OSL use.
Letting players choose the brackets fuck up the whole tournament. Its the reason way every major sporting tournament around the world uses a seeding system like this. When will the MSL ans OSL learn?
On August 27 2009 20:58 Highways wrote: A proper seeding system is waaaaay better than the crap that the MSL and OSL use.
Letting players choose the brackets fuck up the whole tournament. Its the reason way every major sporting tournament around the world uses a seeding system like this. When will the MSL ans OSL learn?
Following the plexa-logic if there is a seeding system, there wont be a group selection > no group selection, no drama > no drama, no interest in the tournament
"1) Reduces drama => reduces interest => reduces hits => reduces sponsors interest in sponsoring your tournament => no money for future OSLs => ??? => OSL GETS BETTER!!! Please explain what ??? is or dont use this argument again. 2) Starcraft is both a team sport and an individual one unlike tennis. When you live in a training house with a team, it is very difficult to practice for everything when you need to prepare against one of your teammates. There is so many additional problems with teammates battling each other that progamers avoid it like the plague. Call it unprofessional if you want, but I actually enjoy having my players play at their best because their preparation wasn't hampered. 3) It is in the teams best interest to have it's players go further, so they get more money, makes their sponsors happy etc What we're left with is; [x] Makes OSL less interesting [x] Makes the players unhappy [x] Makes the teams unhappy [ ] Makes the OSL better!! "
On August 27 2009 20:48 Dice84 wrote: Jaedong vs Bisu looks very possible now. But then again.. that was suppose to happen numerous time but someone always terrorizes the bracket.
It would be somewhat ironic if it finally happens in the one final that really means nothing, and is in fact overshadowed by the 3rd place match.
true, but if jd really retires it would be kinda sick to finally have the much anticipated jd vs bisu final as an ending point under jd´s career. or maybe they meet again in the wcg grand final´s final (lol!).
imagine this: jd retires and the last televised games he will ever play is a wcg final against bisu. epic beyond imagination! (ofc i still hope he doesnt retire....)
but bisu vs stork would also make a good final (for wcg korea). i just really really hope bisu can beat luxury. in general im really looking forward to these pvz series. we´ve had way too few of them these days....
On August 27 2009 21:47 natturner wrote: how did all 4 seeds manage to make it back? if this keeps happening, they wont even need to have a WCG Korea anymore.
i hope Jaedong and Luxury make through to the finals, so then Jaedong can 4-pool Luxury again, iirc.
Jaedong 4poold Stork who 2 gate proxied in the middle. The WCG Korea finals is meaningless and worthless since it does not mean anything to either player, both of the players are qualified already, its the 3rd/4th place match that means the most in WCG.
On August 27 2009 22:53 Scaramanga wrote: Man bisu musta practiced 14 nex alot, game 2 was so good from flash though, the d was perfect, now hes just gotta learn to vs 14nex
Flash played well, especially in game 3, except for that minor mishap of miscontrolling his rines. His vult/mine control was sick and off the charts. I firmly believe that any other toss woulda lost that game due to those pretty insane mines. But Bisu's mine diffusals were just nasty sick.
I thought Flash played badly in game 3. Not only did he not BBS, he also chose to bunker rush on a map with super-long rush distance. When that failed, he was dead. You can do all the sexy vulture micro all you want. But when the opponent has twice the army you do, it doesn't matter. Basically, Flash's judgement, which is the strongest point about his game, left him in game 3.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
I like Flash in games versus other Koreans but I'm glad he lost here. His style of play is more about turtling then pushing. WCG is all about the Koreans curb-stomping the non-Koreans in 10 minutes or less. See Stork killing 3-5 workers with his scouting probe and not losing a single zealot against zerglings/zealots. See Jaedong going backdoor with zerglings and just finishing the game or 4-pooling his way to the finals. See Bisu building pylons and gateways in the opponent's mineral line and just finishing the game there.
We see close games in proleagues all the time. This is the only time we see the equivalent of top BCS teams fighting Division 1-AA opponents. It's just fun to see a complete domination from time to time.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
That kind of stuff never works vs Jaedong. Just see their series in Batoo. Its basically giving Jaedong a free win. 9/9 gate proxy? More people need to watch Lucifer vs Jaedong, because that defence was jawdropping.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
That kind of stuff never works vs Jaedong. Just see their series in Batoo. Its basically giving Jaedong a free win. 9/9 gate proxy? More people need to watch Lucifer vs Jaedong, because that defence was jawdropping.
Dude, Backho won with a 9/9 gate vs jaedong once. BACKHO.
Even if it won't work in 80% of the games, those 20% is all Stork can hope for with his absymal PvZ
Flash obviously was expecting proxy gate or sth in that style on HBR. After that initial failed scv rush he was already far behind and then his ballsy push died because of an amazing micro from Bisu. I have to say that I would expect any other Protoss to die but not Bisu.
ahh damn was not gonna read the spoilers before i get the VODS on my hands but now it's too late, might aswell check things here and watch them tomorrow then ;p
glad to see Bisu vs Flash delivered, wrong guy won though, also after todays games Kwanro has to be in great mental condition for the MSL finals..
Stork can beat Jaedong straight up, give me a break. He's the 5th best PvZer of all time. Jaedong is the favorite, for sure, but Stork has a shot. Let's not forget that Stork knocked Jaedong out of the last WCG. And Stork has been playing a lot of Zerg lately so he has special insight . The maps could be worse although Stork sucks on HBR. Also, what was Jaedong's last ZvP loss? Stork beating him on Destination. Granted, the game didn't matter and Jaedong obviously phoned it in from the Moon, but Stork is 7-10 against Jaedong and I think he's getting better again while Jaedong is, of course, on fire, but still has this FA thing to worry about. Maybe JD will even retire and Stork will get his wish to win by default!
On August 28 2009 02:47 pripple wrote: ahh damn was not gonna read the spoilers before i get the VODS on my hands but now it's too late, might aswell check things here and watch them tomorrow then ;p
glad to see Bisu vs Flash delivered, wrong guy won though, also after todays games Kwanro has to be in great mental condition for the MSL finals..
I really don't think getting 2-0'd by Jaedong in a ZvZ would be too mentally damaging. Kwanro even said in his interview he was really looking forward to this match, win or lose, because he thought it would help him in his final.
On August 28 2009 03:40 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Stork can beat Jaedong straight up, give me a break. He's the 5th best PvZer of all time. Jaedong is the favorite, for sure, but Stork has a shot. Let's not forget that Stork knocked Jaedong out of the last WCG. And Stork has been playing a lot of Zerg lately so he has special insight . The maps could be worse although Stork sucks on HBR. Also, what was Jaedong's last ZvP loss? Stork beating him on Destination. Granted, the game didn't matter and Jaedong obviously phoned it in from the Moon, but Stork is 7-10 against Jaedong and I think he's getting better again while Jaedong is, of course, on fire, but still has this FA thing to worry about. Maybe JD will even retire and Stork will get his wish to win by default!
One can only dream. However, if Jaedong retires, its only from Kespa sanctioned matches. He can probably play GOM and WCG as a semi-pro.
On August 28 2009 00:23 baubo wrote: I thought Flash played badly in game 3. Not only did he not BBS, he also chose to bunker rush on a map with super-long rush distance. When that failed, he was dead. You can do all the sexy vulture micro all you want. But when the opponent has twice the army you do, it doesn't matter. Basically, Flash's judgement, which is the strongest point about his game, left him in game 3.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
Stork's never gonna cannon rush, you kidding me? He'll win with standard or lose with standard. That's his style.
On August 28 2009 00:23 baubo wrote: I thought Flash played badly in game 3. Not only did he not BBS, he also chose to bunker rush on a map with super-long rush distance. When that failed, he was dead. You can do all the sexy vulture micro all you want. But when the opponent has twice the army you do, it doesn't matter. Basically, Flash's judgement, which is the strongest point about his game, left him in game 3.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
Stork's never gonna cannon rush, you kidding me? He'll win with standard or lose with standard. That's his style.
On August 28 2009 06:22 fusionsdf wrote: only flash vs bisu games one and 3 reccomended. skt fanboy detected.
Game 2 was pretty garbage. Bisu kinda just died. I wasn't gonna recommend game 3 either, but the level of play from both sides was quite stellar. I actually am a protoss fanboy. My team tag carries no real meaning. It's the players I root for, not the team.
Well, either Bisu or JD will lose, b/c that's what they always do when it seems like they'll meet in series play. As for the Stork PvT vs Bisu PvT. I'd say Bisu has better mechanics, but Stork plays it better. I mean Stork beat Fantasy on Destination using nothing but zealots and dragoons for the most part.
On August 28 2009 07:51 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, either Bisu or JD will lose, b/c that's what they always do when it seems like they'll meet in series play.
On August 28 2009 00:23 baubo wrote: I thought Flash played badly in game 3. Not only did he not BBS, he also chose to bunker rush on a map with super-long rush distance. When that failed, he was dead. You can do all the sexy vulture micro all you want. But when the opponent has twice the army you do, it doesn't matter. Basically, Flash's judgement, which is the strongest point about his game, left him in game 3.
Really looking forward to Stork vs Jaedong. I can see Stork not even bothering to practice and just go with cannon rushes or 9/9 gate. If it works, it works. If it fails... he wasn't going to win straight up anyway.
Stork's never gonna cannon rush, you kidding me? He'll win with standard or lose with standard. That's his style.
Stork plays a lot more non-standard than you'd think. The guy switch styles based on maps. A few examples off the top of my head.
He cannoned rushed twice on SCY. He went 1-base 3-gate speedlot rush on Tears of the Moon He went goon/sair on Outsider He went sair/reaver/carrier on Andromeda and Neo Reqium. He also 12 Nex more than another protoss in PvT.
Stork usually plays non-standard on maps unfavorable for protoss though. And based on his interview, you know he doesn't think much of his chances.
On August 28 2009 06:22 fusionsdf wrote: only flash vs bisu games one and 3 reccomended. skt fanboy detected.
Game 2 was pretty garbage. Bisu kinda just died. I wasn't gonna recommend game 3 either, but the level of play from both sides was quite stellar. I actually am a protoss fanboy. My team tag carries no real meaning. It's the players I root for, not the team.
I thought game 2 was an absolutely brilliant and ballsy timing attack by flash. As a terran player it made me go wow as much as either of the other games
On August 28 2009 07:54 FireGuyX wrote: I like Stork but I really want to see Bisu vs JD in the WCG Finals.
You might still see Bisu vs JD in the 3rd place match!
JD vs Bisu in the 3rd place match would be better, then they actually might play serious because the loser won't get to go.. now the chances for that happening are quite low ;p
On August 28 2009 06:22 fusionsdf wrote: only flash vs bisu games one and 3 reccomended. skt fanboy detected.
Game 2 was pretty garbage. Bisu kinda just died. I wasn't gonna recommend game 3 either, but the level of play from both sides was quite stellar. I actually am a protoss fanboy. My team tag carries no real meaning. It's the players I root for, not the team.
I'm gonna side with fusionsdf on that one. Game 2 for me, as a Terran players, was great. That was superb timing attack which caught Bisu with his pants around his ankles. It's not that he just died. Bisu himself admitted in the winner interview that he "didn't think" about the build that Flash used.
So to sum up, it was a great game from strategical point of view, but without any flashy moments. I guess what determines whether the game is "good" or not is very subjective, but I personally would have recommended whole series.
On August 27 2009 22:53 Scaramanga wrote: Man bisu musta practiced 14 nex alot, game 2 was so good from flash though, the d was perfect, now hes just gotta learn to vs 14nex
that wasn't 14 nex it was 12 nex. he built his nexus on 12. that is a 12 nex. i dont mean to be a dick but the difference is pretty important. they even have the little supply counts at the bottom right..
LoL. Even Bisu's micro in this game is outstanding, his strategy is really sucky. After getting an advantage early game, he decides to go all three tech in the same time: templar, arbiter and obser, all out of two gates! This is really risky and not necessary at all. And he almost have to pay for that. That game really shows the difference of PvT matchup understanding and style between Stork and Bisu.
EPT
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Bisu <Destination> 
Flash
Jaedong <Destination> 
iirc in his games vs shuttle , he used early dropship +2 tanks, was it on RotK?
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