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http://files.filefront.com/0808 1v1Djoin xadsrP RacePrep/;13272911;/fileinfo.html
This is a PvP on Medusa. Lately I have been trying to use the standard progamer PvP build which is getting 2 gateways and obs+reavers and then pushing out or expanding. I have some questions though, what the order should be and why it should be in that order. I usually start off with a 1 gate tech build. Assume that 2 gate rushing doesn't exist. I get a cyber core and then a zealot+pylon or a zealot+pylon and then a cyber core. That's one thing I don't know what people use, it might be personal preference or there might be a valid reason for getting one thing before the other.
Moving onto the part of PvP where you're buildling your strategy. Protoss players have been going for a gateway, range, then another gateway. I like to go for a gateway, robo bay, then another gateway while my observatory is building. I have the extra minerals to support another gateway while the observatory is buildling and that sort of evens up my minerals/gas. The situation that happens because of this is generally what happens in the replay. I always have a less amount of dragoons because the robo bay came before the gateway. I think that it might work on maps with a ramp, but I was very close to losing in my opinion, because there was no ramp and there was a wide time where the other protoss could have moved in and killed me(probably).
This is where another one of my questions comes into play. While executing this build, do you need to put down a second gateway just to keep the same amount of dragoons? I see progamers get a reaver out fairly early in my opinion and I think they also get a robo bay and then another gateway too. I generally am outnumbered sometimes for some reason too, and I don't understand why. My safest guess would be because my second gateway is later.
Basically I'm asking....
gateway
range
robo bay
gateway
obs
Or.....
gateway
range
gateway
robo bay(more like a PvT build)
What would be the case on maps with a ramp and maps without a ramp? My thoughts initially are that I can go with the first build on maps with a ramp and use the second build with maps without a ramp but idk. SO.....
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I have seen progamers use both builds one against the other. the two gate does not have a huge dragoon advantage and because of the short resupply root of the 1 gate, the 1 gate is able to survive with the quicker reaver. its all a matter of preference.
if you are able to scout your opponents goon count and his range you should be able to know whether he is going DT or not in which case you can decide to skip the obs for a quicker reaver but thats if you are really comfortable in PvP
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something that might help you hold off someone w/ more goons is to place one of your pylons in your choke or whatever area your defense is taking place the extra shots the pylon draws and extra micro the other person has to do to avoid it can really help in a close fight
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I think it all depends on your opponent's build and what you can get away with.
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Not true I know the build you are talking about i think it involves cutting probes but i'm no good at taking builds from VODs Kwark probably knows
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So I watched the replay twice. I'm no PvP expert, but I think the game wouldn't have been so close if you didn't miss the pylon at 49/49. Your tech would have been sooner and that reaver would have been out with a shuttle and you wouldn't have lost so many units.
Both of you guys forgot to macro, but if you had, you would have a unit advantage (or at least would have been even). When you backed into your main, you actually had the same number of goons you just ended up getting them picked off. I think your reaver would have ended up 1-2 minutes sooner if you both didn't miss the pylon at 49.
I think there's a timing window for 2 gate before Robo, especially since you lost your first zeal (I think that might have evened up with the fact that he went 1 zeal before goon, while you went two). There's a moment in there that he should have had the unit advantage but he didn't, I'd have to watch the early game more closely. I think that once you go gate-robo-gate, you're going to be even in unit count because you're both pumping units at about the same rate, with him being perhaps 1 or 2 goons ahead. I felt your advantage neutralized itself with the missing of the 49/49 psi.
I guess you ended up with more probes after you guys stabbed each other's econs and that's how you ended up on top.
This is where another one of my questions comes into play. While executing this build, do you need to put down a second gateway just to keep the same amount of dragoons? I see progamers get a reaver out fairly early in my opinion and I think they also get a robo bay and then another gateway too. I generally am outnumbered sometimes for some reason too, and I don't understand why. My safest guess would be because my second gateway is later.
They've got to be skipping obs or shuttle or something. They go the usual Obs+ shuttle before reaver any progamer should be able to sense the total lack of units (it might be like 6 versus 10 or something) and he'd just break the main on medusa.
I feel that the 1 gateway to reaver can only be used on ramped maps. That's the only way the 6 versus 10 goon count where the 6 goon guy could keep his main.
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It depends on your scouting but assuming your probe died fairly early to his first goon and you didn't see much I'd opt to go 2nd gateway before robo because people blindly going 3 gate or even 4 gate goon on medusa isn't that uncommon so you need the goon count to defend your huge choke point.
On any map that isn't like medusa/longinus I might delay goon range for a faster robo since getting goon range early isn't as important on a map like python or any other ramped map.
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Ive seen some of your previous threads. They got some pretty good answers before i came along though so I did not respond. Cant sleep so ill go ahead and take a look. You seem like a decent player, but how can I put it...sloppy to detail perhaps?
Thunk gets at the important point that it depends on the other guys build and what you can get away with...period. Yes its this simple.
Also that in light of the rep, your questions are ... pretty academic. 900 mins 7min into the game...seriously?
Jonoman gets at the point that it becomes nuanced based on scouting.
Say you see a zcore build to range, so no fast 2nd gate. In this case you are perfectly free to go range&robo to 2nd gate. I don't even think there will be an issue of them killing you early if they stick up 2gate asap after goon kills your scout probe, though I have not worked the timing out.
In the situation in your rep though you were able to infer that p went core first. And you saw fast 2nd gate and a likely range upgrade. In this case its safer to get another gate because if they cut probes and you go robo&range to 2nd gate they will have a unit advantage. If they don't cut probes though your probably fine. And you also have to be aware of possible dt timing. Not like these nuances mattered in this rep anyway though.
Other timings are not so clear cut. Figure them out on your own.
See this bisu vs stork rep for 2-3gate goon reaver. Doesn't get much better than this. http://sc.replays.net/replays/playerreplay.aspx?id=18226
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On February 13 2009 14:03 thunk wrote:So I watched the replay twice. I'm no PvP expert, but I think the game wouldn't have been so close if you didn't miss the pylon at 49/49. Your tech would have been sooner and that reaver would have been out with a shuttle and you wouldn't have lost so many units. Both of you guys forgot to macro, but if you had, you would have a unit advantage (or at least would have been even). When you backed into your main, you actually had the same number of goons you just ended up getting them picked off. I think your reaver would have ended up 1-2 minutes sooner if you both didn't miss the pylon at 49. I think there's a timing window for 2 gate before Robo, especially since you lost your first zeal (I think that might have evened up with the fact that he went 1 zeal before goon, while you went two). There's a moment in there that he should have had the unit advantage but he didn't, I'd have to watch the early game more closely. I think that once you go gate-robo-gate, you're going to be even in unit count because you're both pumping units at about the same rate, with him being perhaps 1 or 2 goons ahead. I felt your advantage neutralized itself with the missing of the 49/49 psi. I guess you ended up with more probes after you guys stabbed each other's econs and that's how you ended up on top.
Show nested quote +
This is where another one of my questions comes into play. While executing this build, do you need to put down a second gateway just to keep the same amount of dragoons? I see progamers get a reaver out fairly early in my opinion and I think they also get a robo bay and then another gateway too. I generally am outnumbered sometimes for some reason too, and I don't understand why. My safest guess would be because my second gateway is later.
They've got to be skipping obs or shuttle or something. They go the usual Obs+ shuttle before reaver any progamer should be able to sense the total lack of units (it might be like 6 versus 10 or something) and he'd just break the main on medusa. I feel that the 1 gateway to reaver can only be used on ramped maps. That's the only way the 6 versus 10 goon count where the 6 goon guy could keep his main.
ah so that supply block really did hurt me....that was stupid
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On February 13 2009 13:18 thunk wrote:
I think it all depends on your opponent's build and what you can get away with.
More new players need to really grasp this fact.
Sure, you want a good, solid, safe opener, but in the end, it really comes down to just how much little advantages you can get away with. Plus, since we're talking about newer players, the comp isn't the most aware bunch. Play like a greedy jerk!
Play to learn to lose to learn to win.
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I may be mistaken, but the gate>robo>gate is designed to give you an expo, safely.
if you go shuttle first with this build, you'll get murdered T-T
the 2 gate>robo is more or less the same thing, but you can pressure your opponent easily because of the high goon count and the reaver.
But there will be a timing window against gate>robo>gate where you'll have a shuttle + reaver, but your opponent 1-2 reavers, or 1reaver+shuttle but with a lower goon count?
i'm not entirely sure on my last point, but i find 2gate>robo a lot easier for me to play with.
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On February 14 2009 00:40 Love.Zelduck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 13:18 thunk wrote:
I think it all depends on your opponent's build and what you can get away with. More new players need to really grasp this fact. Sure, you want a good, solid, safe opener, but in the end, it really comes down to just how much little advantages you can get away with. Plus, since we're talking about newer players, the comp isn't the most aware bunch. Play like a greedy jerk! Play to learn to lose to learn to win.
lol? That was already assumed. I was just wondering if I COULD get away with it o r not to GET an advantage
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On February 13 2009 14:50 Knickknack wrote:Ive seen some of your previous threads. They got some pretty good answers before i came along though so I did not respond. Cant sleep so ill go ahead and take a look. You seem like a decent player, but how can I put it...sloppy to detail perhaps? Thunk gets at the important point that it depends on the other guys build and what you can get away with...period. Yes its this simple. Also that in light of the rep, your questions are ... pretty academic. 900 mins 7min into the game...seriously? Jonoman gets at the point that it becomes nuanced based on scouting. Say you see a zcore build to range, so no fast 2nd gate. In this case you are perfectly free to go range&robo to 2nd gate. I don't even think there will be an issue of them killing you early if they stick up 2gate asap after goon kills your scout probe, though I have not worked the timing out. In the situation in your rep though you were able to infer that p went core first. And you saw fast 2nd gate and a likely range upgrade. In this case its safer to get another gate because if they cut probes and you go robo&range to 2nd gate they will have a unit advantage. If they don't cut probes though your probably fine. And you also have to be aware of possible dt timing. Not like these nuances mattered in this rep anyway though. Other timings are not so clear cut. Figure them out on your own. See this bisu vs stork rep for 2-3gate goon reaver. Doesn't get much better than this. http://sc.replays.net/replays/playerreplay.aspx?id=18226
I was studying Bisus build and noticed he cut probes for some time at 31/33 to get the gate, goon and pylon out faster. This might be the key to safety for gate->robo->gate. You noticed right away that this was a great cut and his production went smoothly after that. I think that if someone were to try and 2gate robo or 3gate goon bust you when you do that cut, you probably have a much higher chance of defending than if you didn't do it. That cut allowed bisu to go shuttle->obs->reaver without stopping goon production even once. I'm gonna try to emulate that build on Medusa as best as I can and see the effects first hand.
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Adapting to your opponent is indeed the most important thing. If your opponent goes 2 gates before gas you have to also, maybe on a ramp you can hold of with 1 gate but that i do not recommend. If he goes 1 gate gas, you can also safely go 1gate gas or put down a second gate and pressure him. I find this the most important build order decision at 16 in pvp. That is at my low c-ish level ofc.
For the choice going gate/robo/gate or gate/gate/robo, it doesnt rly matter. When there is a ramp its useless to go gate/gate/robo cause you will have a few more goons, but you cant do anything with them. And on flat maps your rvr should pop out right in time to stop his extra goons and stalemate remains. I usually go for gate/robo/gate because it gives you a little more flexibility, you get the extra option of harassing him a little sooner.
@imperfect: builiding a shuttle before obs is viable, you gotta wait for your observatory or robobay to be finish anyways. By then your shuttle is more then half rdy. so you dont have to postpone your rvr an entire shuttle, more like a third of a shuttle. Just dont lose any seconds, because you do need that rvr as fast as possible. Build your observatory immeadiatly when your robo finishes (have your probe rdy) etc...
The build goes something like this:
Always keep pumping dragoons ofc, although if you do it perfectly you gotta build 2 zealots after your sixth dragoon to have enough gas for the rvr.
8 - pylon
10 - gate
12 - pylon
13 - zealot
16 - gate or assim depending on your scouting, but lets assume we can safely go assim.
18 - core
19 - zealot
22 - pylon
23 - goon
26 - range
27 - pylon
28 - goon
31 - robo
34 - gate + pylon
> shuttle + observatory + pylon when robo finishes
> robosupportbay + pylon when observatory finishes
> obs when shuttle is done
> rvr when obs is done
> expand
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Re StarBrift:
Well, saying it is the key to safety is overstating it. But yes the 33ish psi mark is a key decision point here. As I see it, the main point of the cut was to get a faster robo. See, you can keep producing probes and have the same amount of goon, but then a later robo. Or probes and robo, but then later goons. So all this shows is Bisus priority was on robo & goons. Fine priorities to have, but consider if your opponent is playing the exact same build without the cut...they will have a slight long term advantage. So personally I might usually make a slight cut as well but go pylon first, then robo/gate. If you are very exact with your timings you can probably have same timing as bisu in that rep but squeeze a couple more probes in there.
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Gnojfatelob, the way you have the build written out there I think a pylon is missing. somewhere between the pylon at 22 and the one with the observatory, there needs to be another pylon built. In the Bisu Vs Stork replay, Bisu builds his at 31, right after the robo and a gate. He doesn't wait to build his gate at 34, but rather builds it at 31 as he's cutting probes, right after the robo. A pylon immediately follows.
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United Kingdom1709 Posts
In answer to the original question, I would say that in general it is better to go gate, robo, gate, since the reaver is greater than the added goons you can put out, in my experience.
On a map with a ramp, to safeguard myself a little early on, I go 2 zealots before dragoon. It can make all the difference. However, usually, you can get your cyber core on 15 or 16, right after the zealot.
And it's true- getting psi blocked is ALWAYS a big deal.
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EPT
