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Mid- & Late-Game ZvP

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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rararara
Profile Joined March 2021
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-04 06:25:21
May 04 2021 06:22 GMT
#1
i'm talking when P has 3rd and just gets ridiculous amounts of units.

what to do?

low APM = lots of money

too many units = not enough control groups aka CHAOS

turtling 4 base P + ball of doom = unit many die

storm drops = undefendable?

and lag doesnt help low hp units.

is defiler the only way?
often I'm stuck on Lair for a long time to keep up with units.
i also try drops, sometimes it works, but often it doesnt.

Anc13nt
Profile Blog Joined October 2017
1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-05 00:15:23
May 04 2021 06:33 GMT
#2
Edit: Lol sorry I did not read the post thoroughly, only read the title
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland555 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-04 06:49:07
May 04 2021 06:48 GMT
#3
but he is the zerg player :D

Try this: send out 2 (2x2) packs of cracklings to 2 different expansions for starters. The better upgrades the better.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6557 Posts
May 04 2021 09:04 GMT
#4
You need defiler and go drops.Is very important you make ultralisk too. gl
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2037 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-04 10:58:33
May 04 2021 10:54 GMT
#5
On May 04 2021 18:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
You need defiler and go drops.Is very important you make ultralisk too. gl


I wouldn't listen to ultra advise. Making ultras is a suicide in ZvP in 99% of situations. In fact, even if you are sigificantly ahead, losing a fight vs archon / dt / reaver with ultras can easily lose you a game.

I agree it is important to use lings aggresievly all the time, they are cheap and provide great value in small skirmishes.

I also think that going defensive + expanding is a way to go. As soon as you can secure 4 bases with a prospect of 5 bases you just need to make many lurkers with swarm for defense (and scourge of course, for obs and shuttle). If you keep it up with mass ling + swarm/plague you will slowly start winning by attrition. Avoid "big fights" vs protoss in late game, storm/reavers are just too effective and it is better to have small micro fights (e.g 12 lings, 3 lurkers, defiler with swarm/plague) as often as you can.

Then as Eon wrote, if you feel that game is going into a map split scenario where you are on even bases vs P, drops have to be used (again, zergling + deflier + lurker), as otherwise a very late game scenario will favour protoss due to gas effeciency on templars/archons.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6557 Posts
May 04 2021 11:03 GMT
#6
I dont think low lvl players can keep with hydra lurk ling production and the micro multitask it takes.So as long as u can make it to 4 bases I think ultra is good for new corners.
att
Profile Joined March 2020
128 Posts
May 04 2021 13:33 GMT
#7
lings yes, but i i think with hydra + lurk u can split the map with them and defend, defend defend. use spread out lurkers in high ground areas like korean pros use, supported by hydras. and u can win
rararara
Profile Joined March 2021
115 Posts
May 04 2021 15:32 GMT
#8
thanks a plenty for the advice big bros!

that defense+skirmish strategy makes a lot of sense, will try it.
i see that kind of style often on Queen's stream, but he has twice the apm :p

but how to drop if P has lots of cannons+HT?
so hard to break!

often I do try to attack at multiple bases, but if without defiler, those troops normally melt quickly and do no damage.
I think at higher level people use less cannons because they need more army?
at my level (1900ish) I lose to that turtle style + maxed out army often, also against much lower rated opponents.
I mean I could play very defensively, drag the game out and make it a matter of who's got more money, but that ain't any fun!
I guess I'm looking for a more aggressive and action-based style, but that doesn't really seem possible?
at least compared to 20 years ago when I used to play (P rarely had FEs).
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10005 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-04 19:26:14
May 04 2021 19:15 GMT
#9
pre-position your lurks in key locations to defend your most exposed expos and rally points, hotkey them so you can move them around easily if needed, make sure your rally points are in the right positions (this varies depending on the map) so you can box a move to P's location asap, preferably with a flank

that stage of the game comes down to good management, you have to figure how you wanna fkey your stuff/where to rally etc.

if you have low apm play defensive and hit your power spikes (crack/defiler/upgs), focus on good management so you can have highly efficient actions, you have to compensate for quantity of actions with higher quality actions
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
BonitiilloO
Profile Joined June 2013
Dominican Republic614 Posts
May 05 2021 16:47 GMT
#10
Try to learn a build u like by heart , try to look for the 6 hatch hydra build, also know the timmings let say when to drone when to build units, after this you need to know what is the protoss going to do, if you see the forge spinning it mean a +1 timming push with corsairs.
How may help u?
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-05 20:44:01
May 05 2021 20:42 GMT
#11
low APM = lots of money

too many units = not enough control groups aka CHAOS

turtling 4 base P + ball of doom = unit many die

storm drops = undefendable?

Answer: Don't let the game get to that point. "Just" make more hydras instead of more drones. Less APM is less of a problem with low econ. Too many units? Attack when you still have control over your control groups. You can control 3 control groups right?

Other answer: Get better at playing the game when it gets to that point. If low apm and control is your problem, then practice better control.
rararara
Profile Joined March 2021
115 Posts
May 05 2021 22:36 GMT
#12
@TT1: Thanks, very good thoughts!

@Boni: I think that part of the game is fairly covered, of course it can be fine-tuned a lot more. Efficiency seperates the pros from the amateurs.

@Danger: I don't think you can evade Mid-Late-Game everytime and I don't want to Hydra-Bust or Ling-Rush every game, hope you understand that. And I'm talking when you have 130+ supply. That ain't 3 control groups of units, you probably need 6+ to cover the most useful units and have 8+ hatches... That's a really interesting point in the game and how a player priotorizes his management with hotkeys.
Besides that, I'm probably not gonna improve much on APM anymore, too old and not enough time, but I'm trying to understand the game better.

which still leaves some open questions for general ZvP mid/late-game debate:
- how to defend storm drops?
- how to drop if P is turtling with HT+cannons?
- is there a more aggression-based approach that can work instead of a defensive style?

Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
May 06 2021 07:24 GMT
#13
The three main ZvP styles that seem to work with low apm, tend to be:

1)Ling or hydra allins early
2)Defense into crackling-ultra, mostly backstabbing when P army leaves and new expansion denial.
3)Mass hydra to take map control into dedicated lurker contain

At least there are the ones I see working with decent success rate.
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