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Hungary11269 Posts
Hopin' for a Revolution
The Making of Modern PvZ
Question thread
The topic of the next Liquipedia Q&A will be the implications of the 3 Base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra Build Order. We will be analysing why Protoss have such a hard time and what solutions can be imagined.
Time
Monday, 9th of November, 3.00 KST
Sunday, 8th of November, 19.00 CET
Sunday, 8th of November, 10.00 PST
Example GamesAs customary, we will have a set of games to watch beforehand and which we'll analyse live on stage. These are: July vs. BeSt, Game 3 on AndromedaNot the first usage ever, but the moment when the build mentioned inevitably surfaced in all its strength.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +Bisu vs. Shine, Game 3 on Heartbreak RidgeParadigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +BackHo vs. Calm, Game 1 on Eye of the StormWho would have thought some hope would come from Backho ? But he takes a game off Calm with great DT usage.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] + You may ask questions about the build, about the games, and also direct questions to specific experts.
We will try to group your questions according to the tedencies implied in them and try to cover all the vital areas. Please do not despair if we do not pick your question in special.
Shoot!
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What is the fundamental weakness of Protoss, in the expert's opinions?
When I think about the protoss matchups, it seems to me that this is the race who's main units have the least firepower. Also think about PvT, they kill us with our own splash a lot of the time. In PvZ they have timings when they are strong, like when they have attack upgrades ahead of carpace, or before zerg has Lurkers, but honestly Zerg seems to me like the more 1a2a3a oriented race here, and Protoss need to bring the goods, so to speak.
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Question: How effective do you think dark archons would be in preventing templar sniping with maelstrom and in the pvz matchup in general?
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I feel the discussion of inbalance that's been going on lately is warranted and interesting.
When i play against protoss i usually get problems if the protoss is aggressive and throws off my timing.
Maybe this is the way protoss should play against zerg now? more aggressive play..
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How should protoss adapt to the zerg starting build besides how many cannons and when to get nexus
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which map is the best to do 3 hatch spire to 5 hatch?
is +1 zlot with mass sair the counter to this build??
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Is this honestly an imba matchup or do you believe it's simply the maps at the moment?
Would a Min Only third solve this problem if it's a map balance issue?
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What do you think about the +1 zealot push after stargate? This is what Bisu did vs JaeDong and Stork vs SEn @ IEF. Is it really good vs 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydralisks?
Also, how should protosses counter muta sniping? Should they get a few sairs or just a dark archon with maelstrom?
I'll be glad if you pick my questions.
Thanks in advance.
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Hello there!
Here's my question:
Could we see more 1-base-builds in the future? Early aggression would prevent the Zerg from massing up drones or units.
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Question: What is the best response for zerg to early protoss aggression? This build's focus is a strong early economy, and it's difficult to defend against 3 zealots without placing down too many sunkens or wasting larvae on too many zerglings.
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Is there any build that allows the protoss to simply take a reasonably quick third and focus on the macro game? Right now it seems like all the protoss counters rely on timing attacks to pressure the zerg, and if it doesn't do damage it's catch up from there.
Also what do you think of the +1 speedzealot into dual stargates from Jangbi vs Calm in the proleague playoffs? When would it be effective and what are the zerg counters?
Also these:
On November 03 2009 22:08 slimshady wrote:
What do you think about the +1 zealot push after stargate? This is what Bisu did vs JaeDong and Stork vs SEn @ IEF. Is it really good vs 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydralisks?
Also, how should protosses counter muta sniping? Should they get a few sairs or just a dark archon with maelstrom?
I'll be glad if you pick my questions.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi there, thanks for doing this. Hope you get some good questions.
My question´.
Many people are talking about how early agression is a good counter to this super greedy new zerg style. Do you think a transition back to the oldschool 2gate zeals or 1gate tech opening is comming( on ramp maps)? Or is it just too weak?
Also: as a protoss i find myself having problems with zergs that camp 3 gas and get hive. THen when i take my 3rd they get a 4th and maybe a 5th. If i move out they counter my 3rd or drop my main with cracklings.
At some point they will have 5k gas from being able to hold me back with lings only and make 30 ultras and run me over.
What would be an appropriate counter to this? mass cannon/reav at my expo?
And a last one (Sorry :o):
What do you guys think the up and downside is to early and massive harass compared to early agression (From toss) in an FE build.
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Sweet banner =D
and it would be nice to include by.Hero vs Bisu on Tau Cross where hero goes almost pure hydralurk and macros like crazy on lair tech.
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On November 04 2009 03:59 JFKWT wrote:
Sweet banner =D
and it would be nice to include by.Hero vs Bisu on Tau Cross where hero goes almost pure hydralurk and macros like crazy on lair tech.
Don`t he open like 4hatch before gas or something that game, at least using a different build than the 3hatch->5hatch but ending up with the same kind of infrastructure in the end? Or am I mistaken?
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Is it possible some sort of low-tech early attack can keep the zerg busy? I'm talking, 1 base, 2 or even 3 gate mass zealot push? It can help to keep the zerg natural under threat, and leave some free time to expand.
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Aw man no tvp =-'(
How do you think the meta game will shift if say, ANOTHER zerg rose to dominance. Do the protoss have to make a statement now about where they are in the pvz relationship. Before everyone and Hyuk's grandma are rolling modern protoss
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Are there any situations/maps where a LurkerLing army would be better than a mass Hydra army when opening 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch? Is there a reason why LurkerLing isn't used much because 3 hatch spire basically nullifies harrassment a lot which seems to be its weakness..
And on the flip side, what things should Protoss keep in mind when Zerg eventually starts playing LurkerLingDefiler? Especially on HBR when the ridges are held so easily.
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Q1:
If Zerg's mutas die,
And Protoss has no corsairs,
And Zerg went Hydra,
Would it be worth it
For Zerg to rebuild his air?
How does Zerg decide?
Q2:
Protoss's third gas.
Zergs will want to delay this.
Maybe with 12 lings.
If Zerg goes Hydra,
And gets no melee upgrades,
Can lings stall the third?
Because in this game,
Luxury does not get lings.
He keeps with hydra.
Is this a mistake?
Are lings not cost effective?
(Without the upgrades.)
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wow sweet, some more talk about my favourite matchup ever
my question is why protoss dont go for mass goon strategies more often, I have by far the most problems vs mass goons, and even lots of lings dont seem to do much when the goon army has reached a certain size and P's storms are decent.
Another question: when should Z go for armor first instead of range upgrade, esp. when z goes for 3 hatch scourge -> lurkers
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as far as map control goes, it is better for Z to trade expos (let P take one and take one for yourself or the complete opposite killing an expo while losing one) or always keep an expo advantage (which inevitably spreads your forces and reduces them)?
also when in mid-game when harassing with your mutas, would it be a better choice to harass undefended or weakly (2-3 cannons) defended expos versus sniping HTs?
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Question: With the metagame of Starcraft currently stuck on 5H hydra vs FE sair, do you see any change in this trend in the near future? If so, what might trigger the revolution? DA? New Map? Kwanroll?
-Spec
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Countering 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hyrda
Do you think 1 base play into quick expansion is a possibility?
This forces zerg to play low eco early on, so when Protoss expands they've already got tech up and Zerg hasnt got a massive economy yet,
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On November 04 2009 08:30 Trozz wrote:Q1: If Zerg's mutas die, And Protoss has no corsairs, And Zerg went Hydra, Would it be worth it For Zerg to rebuild his air? How does Zerg decide? Q2: Protoss's third gas. Zergs will want to delay this. Maybe with 12 lings. If Zerg goes Hydra, And gets no melee upgrades, Can lings stall the third? Because in this game, Luxury does not get lings. He keeps with hydra. Is this a mistake? Are lings not cost effective? (Without the upgrades.)
You're fucking amazing, I'm in awe
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Is the next step of Protoss versus Zerg one base play like corsair DT or corsair Reaver?
I saw the corsair Reaver where the map was LT, the players spawned on the left side. Short distance let the P bring 4 zealots into zerg base, might be able to do enough damage to expand and then macro, tech is already up (robo tech for reaver/zealot drop build, templar tech for DT build)
I don't play any z or p, just curious
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What is your opinion of 5 hatch hydra with a delayed lair and spire? Basically the build in Ahzz's Zerg guide. Instead of scourge to kill corsairs, you use hydralisks. Discussion has revealed a few weaknesses but I want to see the better player's thoughts on this.
Build basically goes like:
Pump mass drones and 6 lings and make 3rd hatchery at standard timing. Make hatcheries when money allows until you have 5. Then get gas at your natural and main, first 50 gas = hydra den, then next 100 = lair. Pumping drones all the while until you have your hydra den up.
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One somewhat complicated question.
First, a little context:
Lately, I've been having some success with this build, specifically a modification of the 2 stargate follow-up variant that doesn't cut probes as severely. When I don't screw up by missing a pylon or forgetting to upgrade Zealot speed, it seems to kill 5 hatch hydra builds almost every time, because they have no defense. When it fails to be an instant kill, the Zerg players seem to be cutting their drone production early to start hydras, and I can move into the late-game in generally good position.
So, my question:
Is the current metagame that favors passive Protoss players who don't really move out onto the map until they have a number of templar with psi storm contributing to the success of the 5-hatch hydra?
To clarify, if more Protoss used aggressive timing attacks that aimed to hit before the Zerg want to ideally start hydralisk production or make their switch to mutalisks for templar sniping, is it possible that the metagame would shift enough to make the more passive Protoss builds more viable because Zerg will have to slow down their own economy when playing standard to be safe against these timing attacks?
To rephrase it to look at the causes side of the theme, have Protoss players brought this situation on themselves by continually shifting to more and more passive play with later and later pushes in reaction to new Zerg developments?
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On November 04 2009 05:13 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 03:59 JFKWT wrote:
Sweet banner =D
and it would be nice to include by.Hero vs Bisu on Tau Cross where hero goes almost pure hydralurk and macros like crazy on lair tech. Don`t he open like 4hatch before gas or something that game, at least using a different build than the 3hatch->5hatch but ending up with the same kind of infrastructure in the end? Or am I mistaken?
Are such variations counted in the build?
edit: Someone above asked about staying on hydras before spire, dunno if thats counted as a 3hat spire 5hat hydra build
and when's this gonna happen sry??
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question:
zerg is planning to go 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, but he scouts protoss's base and sees that he is not fast expanding. Protoss blocks his choke with 2 zealots, and negates overlord scouting with one dragoon. zerg then expects 1 base into fast reaver. what deviations should zerg do regarding build order?
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Q1: As High Templar sniping has become more effective, we've seen some Protoss players counter by using Dark Archons (Maelstorm), adding more dragoons/archons, and trying other "strange strategies (e.g. Backho's DTs). Do any of these "anti-Muta" options help re-balance PvZ, or should Protoss be completely rethinking the match-up?
Q2: Are Corsair-Reaver builds a good option for stopping the 3-hatch spire into 5-hatch Hydra build? If so, why haven't we seen them used more.
Q3: Should protoss be using more Corsairs in general against Zerg?
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Question What do you guys think about disruption web w/ heavy dragoon force as a defense against mass hydra? "Disruption Web prevents units from firing OUT of the web but doesn't prevent units from firing INTO the web" (classic.battle.net). Sounds like a good way to neutralize Hydras with ranged protoss units (carrier/dragoon) on maps that have a narrow choke to defend at the second expansion (like Heartbreak ridge). The tech is there, so maybe this could continue into a corsair/carrier build. Is this a realistic option?
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Question: Is it feasible to continue pumping the corsair production to prevent Muta sniping? Most Protoss stop after 2 Corsairs. Is this a possible way to prevent the mutas killing all the high templars, or will there be too much of a gas deficiency to produce HT?
Also, somebody posted about making the 3rd a mineral only. Would this balance ZvP, and how would it affect PvT and ZvT?
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Question: Should Protoss do much less forge FE into sair DT or sair reaver because it is so predictable? If a protoss did a classic 2 gate rush more often and found a better way to denie the zerg scouting. To me this seems as a solution I just can't figure how to denie the scouting.
Question: I like to do sair / reaver into carriers on Destination (with disruption to prevent hydra busts). Are there any specific counter build I should watch out for?
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lol, Trozz must be really interested in this if he made so many haikus + Show Spoiler +Rock on man
My question: on his stream, I very often saw  ret pick different (but all macro based) lurker builds instead of this muta into hydralisk strategy. Seeing as ret is the top contender for the best foreign ZvP title: what may be his reasons for this?
Maybe he finds some apm bottleneck in the muta-snipe based mass army control that isnt present in the lurker builds? Is it that the muta stack is more prone to smaller errors in execution due to the possible bursts in damage? (see Luxury vs Guemchi on HBR, or refer to the DA/maelstrom metagame switch discussion in the strategy forum)
Or (my guess) is it simply because the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra is such a dominant build in this matchup lately that most Protosses simply expect it, and the zealot/archon-heavy army is more susceptible to lurkers (and observer snipes)? (even at his high level, I often saw Protoss almost blindly picking such builds)
(little sidetrack: Is this preceived smaller exposure to main zerg tech switches the reason for the seeming emergence of earlier goon-templar transitions? (Lately I often find that protosses dont aim for reaching the "old" number (10-14) of zealots, and often move out with a lot fewer, and with speed upgrades only, in order to surely avoid the mutalisks and the mass hydras both, and to delay zerg harassment.) Is Calm's lategame mass crackling transition/harass (twice versus BackHo recently) abusing the structure of goon-templar play, or just the presumed lacks in preparation and multitasking of his opponents?)
In general, what are this build's advantages over lurker/contain builds, and vice versa?
An other, shorter, but more general one: What can Protoss do to remain cost-effective in the matchup with all the zerg possibilities in tech switches, and critical structural counters (like the templar snipes of the discussed build) versus most protoss builds, if the mass-effect of a protoss army is negated by the forced macro game and the superior mobility of zerg? Are we going to see a revival of 1-base openings?
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May I recommend a game to watch. I think the toss build in this game has some potential to counter modern zerg: first spoiler is the explanation, second spoiler should be the VOD.
+ Show Spoiler +
The build:
Fast two-gate into expansion, walling off your expo with the gates and pylons and filling the holes with probes and zealots to prevent runbys. Then using the remaining, but still fairly early zealots (compared to standard forge-first fast expand build) to either prevent the zerg from taking a third or from building drones to utilize it, if its already up.
This build is probably going to be hard to pull of and it totally backfires in this game, but remember that to succeed with a standard forge-first fast expand you need
- perfect timing
- good scouting
- perfect building placement
- fast reactions with your probes if the zerg attempts a run by.
This build needs:
- perfect building placement
- very good zealot micro
- probably also perfect timing.
But if you can do all of that then it seems like it can provide:
- a fairly early and well-protected expo so you dont loose the economic game.
- a fairly early army of zealot that can prevent the zerg getting or utilizing his second expo, thereby preventing him from doing a real 5-hatch hydra.
You also avoid what I see as being the major problem with forge first: that you are left with almost no early game army and therefor almost no change to prevent the zerg going 5 hatch-hydra, which then pwns the canons at your expo. You do forge first for the economic advantage but is left playing defensively for a long time, because of the threat of a hydra attack.
+ Show Spoiler +
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should protoss players try to maintian a group of 4-6 corsair in their arsenal at all times to dissuade/prevent the production of mutas, or is this too costly/ineffective against a zerg with a large hydra army?
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Could you reflect on the nerdrage going on about how "imba" zerg is? Idk, tell if you think it's imbalanced or not, or why would it seem so....
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United States17042 Posts
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I'll just say this, I no longer believe Zerg is imbalanced. I just believe they are confusing to deal with. The fact that there is a lack of good Ps and an influx of good Zs doesn't really help show this imo. PvZ has always been my favorite MU .
Question 1:
I notice a lot of Zergs after going for the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra build get a late group of Mutalisks to snipe High Templars in order to just roll the Protoss with Hydralisks. What is the most efficient way for Protoss to defend against these Mutalisks?
Here a couple of possible answers I am not sure of:
+ Show Spoiler +One method I've tried using is getting 4 extra corsairs after my initial sair and use those to fight the mutalisks. My problem with this is that if the Zerg sees my sair count, he just sticks to a ground army and rolls me due to my lack of High Templars (IE: I cut HTs to build sairs in order to defend non-existent/remaining HTs against Mutas. Mutas don't come. I lose HT production and have useless sairs). Needless to say, I don't use this anymore although I'm not sure if it can work.
One method I've seen some progamers (Violet vs Shine) try, is get a Dark Archon to maelstrom the Mutalisks. Personally, I've never tried this. I want to ask, is it worth it to delay Storm research and delay the HTs themselves in order to defend against the mutalisks? Like the first case with the Sairs, isn't it possible for Zerg to just roll the Protoss with Hydras since there is a lack of storm?
Question 2:
If you remember the Chill vs Combat-ex showmatch, in each of the games, Combat-ex gets a large gateway count off of 2 bases. I've been doing a similar thing in my PvZ for a while before that showmatch (Edit: 8 gates though instead of 12). It allows the Protoss to sacrifice some econ in order to get a pretty large army pretty fast. I noticed Stork use something similar in his game against Jaedong on Heartbreak Ridge in WCG Korea. I want to ask your opinion on this "build." When is it most viable and when is it absolutely useless? Is this build pretty much a "semi-all in build" or can it be considered "standard"?
Question 3:
I just thought of this now so I didn't really try it out in an actual game. I remember back in TSL, Nony used to get a quick Dragoon/HT army and attack the Zerg using that. I want to ask, is this viable considering the current trends of ZvP?
Sorry for the number of questions. I just love the MU so much 
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12 gates from 2 base like combat-ex did is because he has bad macro, he added like 6-8 gates at once.. so he had at least 1k minerals in the bank and didn´t know what to do with it, u just can´t support 12 gates from 2 bases.
Watch Bisu, he plays from 5 gates zealot-archon and 1 stargate sairs so well, doing that, he can expand very aggresively. That is his style, but hes the best PvZ player ever so..
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Question: How can a zerg deal with a 1 base protoss that goes 2-3 or even more gates mass floodzea without him catching you with your pants down while teching?
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United States42250 Posts
On November 04 2009 05:51 Espers wrote:
Are there any situations/maps where a LurkerLing army would be better than a mass Hydra army when opening 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch? Is there a reason why LurkerLing isn't used much because 3 hatch spire basically nullifies harrassment a lot which seems to be its weakness..
And on the flip side, what things should Protoss keep in mind when Zerg eventually starts playing LurkerLingDefiler? Especially on HBR when the ridges are held so easily.
Corsairs.
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Q1: When is getting +1 air armor beneficial for the Zerg? Muta/scourge with armor upgrades ahead of Corsair attack upgrades can fight them head-on. Is this only done as a response to sair/reaver, as shown in one of the example games, or can it be done in a muta opening which forces Corsairs?
Q2: Following the above question, on maps like HBR, is it viable to go 4 or 5 hatch muta and skip hydras? It is very difficult to defend a fourth base on HBR with ground, but the air distance to the top and bottom bases is very short and allows a muta army to defend much more easily. It also prevents P from taking his third base quickly as the mutas can move between the natural and the third over those cliffs while P's ground army cannot follow. This would theoretically result in a 4base vs 2base situation, very favorable for the Zerg.
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As explored in day[9]'s recent daily show, is early aggression the key to preventing the domination of the protoss by 5 hatch spire, such as shown by players like Gosi[Flying] or Bisu?
Hyvaa vs Violet on HBR showed this early aggression, however Hyvaa countered it by making 4 sunken colonies. Hyvaa still lost as his ZvP is far inferior to Violet's PvZ.
There is a corollary to this question : Even if this is the appropriate counter to 5 hat hydra, will it be the appropriate counter at all levels of play? -
I wrote a thread a few months ago exploring when this specific timing was, it was very long and theory crafty so it wasn't very widely read. However, it is a difficult, complex build to execute that involves specific probe cuttings. Especially with lower level mechanics the timing is difficult to get right.
Also, a new map pool has been established for PL, and universal opinion seems to be that the maps are unfavored for protoss. Is this the case or is the perception flawed because of the current metagame? Some maps, such as Matchpoint even seem protoss favored in the results.
Edit : There is an additional concern that occurred to me while watching Pusan vs Savior from PL. The appropriate counter to Savior's extreme turtle style of play would be the same expansionistic playstyle that Flying used vs Great. However, it is very difficult to determine whether a zerg player will opt for this playstyle or go for map control via a mass hydra with muta sniping build. It comes down to a scouting question, basically, how do you tell if zerg is going to macro extremely hard off of 3 or 4 bases behind crazy simcities and lurkers?
This is a larger concern when laddering than when playing in PL (most zergs have really well known preferences for their zvp playstyle. Great is a notorious turtler).
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Hi there here is my question:
First, recall the game of Bisu vs Jaedong MSL Season 4 on Blue Storm. Now Jaedong won, but I think that Bisu had a pretty good advantage the entire game. I think this is a pretty good standard way to take on zergs and not some stratagy that will work like only one time (e.g. mass DTs or goon rushes). In that match I liked how he used the reaver to get his 2nd expansion really fast while at the same time doing some harass. I think that today protosses want to take on the 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra on just two bases and when they play that way it usually comes down to the timings in the first engagements or how well was the templar sniping with muta or was protoss able to get a couple of good storms before his templar got sniped (e.g. Bisu vs Jaedong on HBR in SPL Ace match). Why don't protosses try to get their 2nd expansion fast and try to start building that protoss ball instead of trying to finish it off on 2 bases while at the same time trying to deny the zergs forth (with DTs for example)?
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Here is my Question, is that picture winner or not??? I need expert opinion on this one.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Here is a question ive been wondering alot about.
I am a horrible Protoss player so I can not figure this out and would love for you to give me some understandings!
Fundamentally Zerg is the best race at economy development should they get to focus on that without threat.
Protoss on the other hand are limited by their worker production rate but can on the other hand steadilly grow their army and economy simultaniously.
Do you think that many of todays protoss players are passive for too long and are too bad at exploitng the fact that zerg grows very slowly if they are forced to make alot of units and defences while protoss grow fast even with high armyproduction rates.
If that is true, why is protoss not playing more aggressive initial builds?
It seems to me that protoss would benefit from a slower development rate match where both races are making alot of units and trying to grow their economy during war rather the skipping this and jumping straight to the mid-game without any battles fought.
It seems protoss by trying to fast forward like this puts them behind the zerg, and then they are trying to turn it all around by using special units like templars.
I guess my question is: Why do we see the forge first opening in 90%+ of games?
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In July vs Best Game 3, July completly negated any damage from Best's sair/reaver opening allowing July to get a huge econ going. But, despite this Best made a reasonable game out of it.
Why wasn't the game more one sided later on?
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United States42250 Posts
On November 09 2009 02:31 Monzterg wrote:
Here is a question ive been wondering alot about.
I am a horrible Protoss player so I can not figure this out and would love for you to give me some understandings!
Fundamentally Zerg is the best race at economy development should they get to focus on that without threat.
Protoss on the other hand are limited by their worker production rate but can on the other hand steadilly grow their army and economy simultaniously.
Do you think that many of todays protoss players are passive for too long and are too bad at exploitng the fact that zerg grows very slowly if they are forced to make alot of units and defences while protoss grow fast even with high armyproduction rates.
If that is true, why is protoss not playing more aggressive initial builds?
It seems to me that protoss would benefit from a slower development rate match where both races are making alot of units and trying to grow their economy during war rather the skipping this and jumping straight to the mid-game without any battles fought.
It seems protoss by trying to fast forward like this puts them behind the zerg, and then they are trying to turn it all around by using special units like templars.
I guess my question is: Why do we see the forge first opening in 90%+ of games?
Speed upgraded zerglings rape early game so hard. They can run past and snipe zealots as they move in support, they can gank your main and they can simply overwhelm and get decent cost effectiveness vs anything P has. Plus you never know how many they have. You don't know when he's not got many and you can push out with 5 zealots and when he has 20 and you are about to get surrounded and lose 5 zealots.
If you don't attack really early you get to deal with 2 base 2 gas lair vs 1 gas protoss. That's just not happening. Protoss needs that 2nd gas to compete with zerg. You need obs, you need upgrades, you need storm. Add in the mutalisk factor, you need dragoons or archons or corsairs and you need to be able to defend quickly. Without 2 gas you are simply overstretched and will either be harassed to death, overwhelmed or end up camping but without an exp.
You have to understand Protoss isn't being passive early. If Z doesn't keep the Protoss economic machine in check by threatening cheese and denying scouting then Protoss will just surge ahead. Unharassed, Protoss will 200/200 so fast. Your assumption here is wrong "Fundamentally Zerg is the best race at economy development should they get to focus on that without threat."
Protoss have a bunch of offensive options. From mass sairs to dragoon timing attacks to speedlot zealot attacks to simply FEing into 2 gates then 5 slow zealots. The FE does not limit Protoss options.
There is nothing wrong with FE builds.
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United States42250 Posts
My question, should protoss stay on 2 bases for longer to unleash a string of massive attacks to keep the zerg from powerdroning and expanding beyond the original 3 bases? Movie vs hero on HBR as an example. By going to 3 bases early the Protoss gives the zerg breathing room after the first big attack fails. By not expanding as you send out your first big force and instead expanding as you send out the second big one then the zerg misses the powerdroning timing window for getting their hive tech and economic shit going on.
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Where to find game they are talking about?
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This was great. Thanks everyone :O
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Hungary11269 Posts
The broadcast has ended, mp3 is being created and the video is on-demand on www.livestream.com/Mystlord . Sorry if you feel your question has not been answered, we tried to cover as much ground as possible.
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Has this happened yet? the threads been up for a while. If not, then this is not really a question but a viable topic of discussion would be the possibility of incorporating the dark archon into a standard protoss build, as mael is a great counter to muta sniping. Something along the line of 2 dts for early harass and map control and protect them as much as u protect corsairs to do some kind of DA / mael timing midgame
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On November 17 2009 23:29 atm0sphere33 wrote:
Has this happened yet? the threads been up for a while. If not, then this is not really a question but a viable topic of discussion would be the possibility of incorporating the dark archon into a standard protoss build, as mael is a great counter to muta sniping. Something along the line of 2 dts for early harass and map control and protect them as much as u protect corsairs to do some kind of DA / mael timing midgame
Go to this thread for the mp3 -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105313
Go to this thread to discuss dark archons in PvZ -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=103526
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