EPTBan request: Frank[DUX], leaving 2 games in a row after the game starts.
Info: time:now 23/09 23:05.
Players at the 2nd game: iN3gos, Mobik, 1lslkfndio, Kaeli, Frank[DUX], Belial80.
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ - Page 140
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iN3gos
40 Posts
Ban request: Frank[DUX], leaving 2 games in a row after the game starts. Info: time:now 23/09 23:05. Players at the 2nd game: iN3gos, Mobik, 1lslkfndio, Kaeli, Frank[DUX], Belial80. | ||
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beWaterMyFriend78
115 Posts
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
On September 22 2024 05:55 BGHplayer wrote: This does not make any sense, especially when sometimes only 1, 2 or 3 bots are running. As suggested its best to be 2x SAB and 2x CDE, during active hours. One bot running SABC game. Two bots running SAB and ABC. Three bots running SAB, ABC, SABC. Same with CDE. Still no sense? CLARIFICATION Hey guys, those who doesn't understand, please read "One bot" as "WHEN one bot is running", etc. | ||
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beWaterMyFriend78
115 Posts
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
On September 24 2024 06:35 beWaterMyFriend78 wrote: No makes no sens because you need more than 4 bots. I don't understand your argument. Clearly you can have 3 and 2 bots for this, read the above. | ||
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
SA players want to play without C. Please note that C players sometimes also want to play without S. Meet needs of both, split SABC into SAB and ABC, when possible. Further improvements possible. Gather statistics. When SAB game is getting remade due to a timer, remake it as SABC game, then make SAB again. Same for DEF games. | ||
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BGHplayer
13 Posts
On September 24 2024 06:53 Wormer wrote: Most player base is in BCDE, it is unfair to host only SAB games during the prime time that only benefits 30% of players. SA players want to play without C. Please note that C players sometimes also want to play without S. Meet needs of both, split SABC into SAB and ABC, when possible. Further improvements possible. Gather statistics. When SAB game is getting remade due to a timer, remake it as SABC game, then make SAB again. Same for DEF games. There are more than 300 players played last 30 days ranked S, A and B. What do you mean cover 30% of players? When there will be 2 bots for the CDEF at the same time?? Exactly meeting the need for both is 2xSAB and 2xCDE, I dont see it any more clear than that. There are alot of C ranks, which in a day of CDE will reach B without a problem increasing those numbers further. This is exactly the reason for this need = To separate C ranks between B and real low skilled C. Also, dont forget +50 wins and 4ranked, where all play together. | ||
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
On September 24 2024 16:33 BGHplayer wrote: There are more than 300 players played last 30 days ranked S, A and B. But it's only 30% of all players, there are 680 active players ranked lower than B. The active player base is divided into 2% S players, 7% for A and F groups each, and 21% B, C, D, E each group. According to the data only 20 S players were active. On September 24 2024 16:33 BGHplayer wrote: What do you mean cover 30% of players? When there will be 2 bots for the CDEF at the same time?? Exactly meeting the need for both is 2xSAB and 2xCDE, I dont see it any more clear than that. That's the point: two SAB bots for 30% of the player base, and two bots for the rest 70% seems unfair. If we are talking about 4 online bots, more fair solution would be to designate one bot to SAB, two other bots to CDEF, and the forth bot to all ranks. In my opinion playing with slightly higher rank is what leads to the personal improvement. My other concern is total separation of B/C during the prime time might lead to a bigger gap between divisions -- the less mixed games are played the more independent SAB ranks will become from CDEF ranks. It is like dividing the ranking system into two separate worlds, where score points from a "higher" world become independent from score points of the "lower" world. CDEF players will only learn to play between themselves and will have a hard time when put into SAB world during all +50wins/4ranked times or when they obtain their B rank. For instance SAC vs ABB played during 4ranked will be less balanced as it looks due to the fact that the score point of the C player is based mostly on CDEF games. The other example is when C rank (let's say player X) obtains his fresh B and joins his first SAB game -- that game will be unbalanced because newborn B rank has little experience with SAB, because X's score represents it's performance in CDEF world. Player X will be dropped back to C, where he soon wins enough games and the loop will repeat. Those players who are good enough to leave CDEF will be so to say unprepared for SAB games. It is hard to explain but the border between B/C becomes "sharp". Generally speaking there are all kinds of different games: with smooth balance like CCC vs CCC, or mixed balance like SAC vs ABB; with neighbour start locations like top vs bottom, or when players from different teams are mixed; all types of races; different types of opening strategies; etc. But there is only one score number that represents a player. Player can play well in some circumstances, but lack the experience with the others. By putting players in all kinds of environments we are including more knowledge into the score about their performance. That why I feel it is important to have more mixed games during the prime time when the most games are played. After all, team games are not all about those 1v1 skills that include tactical battles, units control, an ability to macro, but also about team skills that include the ability to read their allies, assist when needed, making decisions when ally can be helped or when a counterattack is the better answer. S ranks skill also includes the ability to communicate with his team, to lead his team where some players can play much worse than the others. This kind of skill is only developed in mixed balance games like SAC vs SAC. | ||
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elpolloloco31
145 Posts
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BGHplayer
13 Posts
On September 24 2024 18:36 Wormer wrote: But it's only 30% of all players, there are 680 active players ranked lower than B. The active player base is divided into 2% S players, 7% for A and F groups each, and 21% B, C, D, E each group. According to the data only 20 S players were active. That's the point: two SAB bots for 30% of the player base, and two bots for the rest 70% seems unfair. If we are talking about 4 online bots, more fair solution would be to designate one bot to SAB, two other bots to CDEF, and the forth bot to all ranks. In my opinion playing with slightly higher rank is what leads to the personal improvement. My other concern is total separation of B/C during the prime time might lead to a bigger gap between divisions -- the less mixed games are played the more independent SAB ranks will become from CDEF ranks. It is like dividing the ranking system into two separate worlds, where score points from a "higher" world become independent from score points of the "lower" world. CDEF players will only learn to play between themselves and will have a hard time when put into SAB world during all +50wins/4ranked times or when they obtain their B rank. For instance SAC vs ABB played during 4ranked will be less balanced as it looks due to the fact that the score point of the C player is based mostly on CDEF games. The other example is when C rank (let's say player X) obtains his fresh B and joins his first SAB game -- that game will be unbalanced because newborn B rank has little experience with SAB, because X's score represents it's performance in CDEF world. Player X will be dropped back to C, where he soon wins enough games and the loop will repeat. Those players who are good enough to leave CDEF will be so to say unprepared for SAB games. It is hard to explain but the border between B/C becomes "sharp". Generally speaking there are all kinds of different games: with smooth balance like CCC vs CCC, or mixed balance like SAC vs ABB; with neighbour start locations like top vs bottom, or when players from different teams are mixed; all types of races; different types of opening strategies; etc. But there is only one score number that represents a player. Player can play well in some circumstances, but lack the experience with the others. By putting players in all kinds of environments we are including more knowledge into the score about their performance. That why I feel it is important to have more mixed games during the prime time when the most games are played. After all, team games are not all about those 1v1 skills that include tactical battles, units control, an ability to macro, but also about team skills that include the ability to read their allies, assist when needed, making decisions when ally can be helped or when a counterattack is the better answer. S ranks skill also includes the ability to communicate with his team, to lead his team where some players can play much worse than the others. This kind of skill is only developed in mixed balance games like SAC vs SAC. This is last time I am gonna try to explain, you serms to really not get it. 1. SA are not active because they leave the games when they have C rank allies vs AAB or something. 70% of games. Cant you see this results in eventually only full room of C ranks, making no difference game level than CDEF, which is what u wanted, all bots playing C rank games. What skills are you learning exactly then? 2. As already mentioned several times, about 100-200 from allthose C ranks will go B rank right away, that will make SAB like 50% of players or so. Also btw its better to drop from B to C then from C to D, which proves how low level players were allowed in SABC. And you are wrong that players will drop to anyway, because then B ranks will team up with S ranks, which is what we need to improve them further, isnt that what u wanted? 3. Its 2024, I am afraid by now you either learn a decent level or you never will, so I dont really undestand what chance and for what ballance are you talking about, when most of those ppl just started BW or just not active at all. I also wanna go into ASL, but obviously aint gonna happen. Get over it. 4. Have you tried to control/ communicate and team play with EF rank? The feeling is the same when SA tries to control the majority of C= Nobody listen anything and if they do its either late or poorly performed. Waste of time. So if you wanna bring some action and really learn something those must be divided, otherwise its just 4 bots running C level games all of the time. PS @Admin, those 300 SAB can increase to 400-500 players if you increase those percentages mentioned above, so that the ladder is really split to something like 40: 60 SAB:CDEF. Example: S about 40-50 top players, A about 150, and B about 250, so u get like 450 SAB, and 550 CDEF which would fill the 1000 limit I am guessing? I am positive this would change the ladder for good and get more players to come. Thank you. | ||
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vfsjhvfsjh
94 Posts
Player ID : DarkStarOne reason : the use left after the game starts(after the bot msg - Please don't leave) screenshot available here - https://imgur.com/a/WAffjlV the player GavuS left after he left. So it's not for him but DarkStarOne only. | ||
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beWaterMyFriend78
115 Posts
It doesn't matter in the end, people have tried to change it several times, but the admin doesn't agree  | ||
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beWaterMyFriend78
115 Posts
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BGHplayer
13 Posts
On September 25 2024 06:08 beWaterMyFriend78 wrote: @ Wormer According to your calculation, you would need 6 bots, but there are only 4 available. It doesn't matter in the end, people have tried to change it several times, but the admin doesn't agree If thats the case, it is fine-his project. PS, I have red the whole thread and no such changes were ever suggested. | ||
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
I say that if there is only one bot online during ABC time then it runs an SABC game; if there are two bots online during SABC time then one bot runs SABC, the other runs CDEF; if there are three bots online then one runs SAB, the other runs ABC, and the third runs CDEF; if there are all four bots online then one of them runs SAB, the other runs ABC, the third runs SABC, and the last one runs CDEF. Mirror things for CDE times. @BGHplayer I think the idea of hosting "elite" games for SAB is a good one, I just don't think there should be too many such games. I also feel like games where ABC are mixed together are important on a regular basis. 1. SA are not active because they leave the games when they have C rank allies vs AAB or something. 70% of games. Cant you see this results in eventually only full room of C ranks, making no difference game level than CDEF, which is what u wanted, all bots playing C rank games. What skills are you learning exactly then? S players indeed often quit ABC vs AAB games, though it doesn't lead to a significant delay. Usually another A, B, or C player joins immediately because SABC games are popular. It is not true that most SABC games are CCC vs CCC, from my experience many of those games have at most three C players. I view the fact that some players are picky with games on a regular basis as way to cheat the system by choosing a favorable matchup. It only means that the score of some players represents these players only in certain matchups. Let's say an S player X only picks games with S and A ranked players, then should that player be considered better than an S player Y who plays all including SAC vs AAB games and who's score is slightly worse? The better score of a player X only represents his preformance in SA games, while the score of a player Y represents his performance in all kinds of games. That way player X is avoiding unfavorable situations and deliberately forging a higher score than those he would achieve playing all games. The same by the way is true for the games volume. Those people who have reached top can keep playing one carefully picked game per month (with friends, with favorable races and positions, etc.) and with enough luck keep the first place. Would they play more games on a regular basis their score would have been more representative. Although I used a word "cheat" above I don't say that those players who pick games are cheaters! Those players craft their own profile on an account, that is their right to do. For example, I am playing only zerg, would I play random my score would have been much lower. The profile of a person is correct in certain environments. If one plays only SA games and he is really good at it -- great! but then the complaints of the kind "SAC vs AAB are imbalanced" are incorrect. If one finds SA easy and SAC hard only means that he probably needs more training in SAC. It's also incorrect to carry strategies from SA games into strategies of SAC and complain towards your C ally. Imbalanced lobby (SAC vs AAB) needs different strategies and another mindset. 2. As already mentioned several times, about 100-200 from allthose C ranks will go B rank right away, that will make SAB like 50% of players or so. These ranks are relative to the skill of the population. Imagine all players from S to E stop playing bot, and we are left with only F players, then the whole F division will be "stretched" from S to F again -- those players who are first in F will obtain S ranks, etc. ASL champions doesn't play bot, if they would then probably they be the new S rank and the current S ranks will be shifted towards A division. These divisions are only based on % of the whole player base. If 100-200 C players will one day start playing better, then the same amount of players from B has to go C. It doesn't mean those "retired" B players start playing worse, it only means that they are now ranked C in an overall better population of players. The division only has meaning relative to the whole skill of a population. The C division today is probably a different skill from the C division 3 years ago. That why this kind of argument is incorrect. Also btw its better to drop from B to C then from C to D, which proves how low level players were allowed in SABC I didn't quite understand this one. Do you mean that there is not enough motivation to improve from C to B, because you will have access to less games? And you are wrong that players will drop to anyway, because then B ranks will team up with S ranks, which is what we need to improve them further, isnt that what u wanted? I was talking about "sharpness" of the C/B transition when there are few (only +50wins and 4ranked) games played between these divisions. People in C will learn how to play CDEF games, people in B will learn how to play SAB games. When a fresh player is promoted from C to B he is well equipped to play CDEF (that is the first reason why he grow to B), but is yet not prepared for SAB, and the SAB game with that guy is unbalanced. More mixed games between C and B mitigates that problem. 3. Its 2024, I am afraid by now you either learn a decent level or you never will, so I dont really undestand what chance and for what ballance are you talking about, when most of those ppl just started BW or just not active at all. I also wanna go into ASL, but obviously aint gonna happen. Get over it. Balance means a good level of fairness for all participants of the process. In my view it is not very fair when 30% of people receive 50% of games during the prime time. It is probably better to measure some other parameter than bare volume of the player base. If I could I would take into account an activity of each division. This information is not publicly available, although I don't think the results be in favor of SAB. 4. Have you tried to control/ communicate and team play with EF rank? The feeling is the same when SA tries to control the majority of C= Nobody listen anything and if they do its either late or poorly performed. Waste of time. I am trying to apply different strategies. I know that I can't play CEF vs DDE the same way as I would play with only C and D allies. I capitalize on my strong sides where I know I am better than my D opponents. For instance I know that D zerg can't effectively punish my macro start due to going first sunken then lings, so I do that; or I know that I can successfully rush certain D protoss builds like gate+forge and then defend the counterattack. The key point is my opponents aren't omnipresent Gods, the game is still balanced, but in an assymmetric manner. I have to focus on my strong sides, determine opponents' weak sides, look for practical complications. It's like playing a Queen, Knight, Pawn vs Rook, Rook, Bishop in chess -- you can't apply Queen vs Queen approach, wins those who better knows what he is doing in this particular situation. PS @Admin, those 300 SAB can increase to 400-500 players if you increase those percentages mentioned above, so that the ladder is really split to something like 40: 60 SAB:CDEF. Example: S about 40-50 top players, A about 150, and B about 250, so u get like 450 SAB, and 550 CDEF which would fill the 1000 limit I am guessing? I am positive this would change the ladder for good and get more players to come. If percentages for SAB are increased like this then almost everyone who are now in C (at this moment C finishes at 500 top players) will be B ranks and SAB games will be essentially SABC games. Nothing will really change besides division names and those 50 losers from the bottom of C who didn't get into new B. | ||
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BGHplayer
13 Posts
The SAB games will be a bit like SABC, but not the same! With an actual lower level C rank reduction. Those 100-150 lower points C will remain C, the better rated C ofc will go B (a nessessary need to maintain bots full ofc). You seem to also ignore the other important change here - increasing number of higher rank slots. S ranks top player from 20 to 35-40, A ranks from 68 to 150, and B ranks to about 200. By creating more slots to higher ranks, more and more players would play as they are more reachable, and everybody wanna be higher rank as possible. This creates motivation in those player, to play more try harder, resulting a bit more competative envirement, which is more fun and real skills are formed. Do not forget this goes both high and low ranks, because such change reflects on CDEF, with about 40:60 SAB : CDEF you make higher d ranks C, higher E ranks. Basically F rank is not need, just combine E and F, level is quite the same and basically will effect nothing. Example 200 C, 200 D, 200 E. | ||
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ArturGN
16 Posts
Ban request: Attacking teammates will result team killer Veggetto game ID - 3x3 Big Game Hunters match played on 2024-09-18 20:32 20240918/205821 unvision, unally, team kill, simple case replay https://drive.google.com/file/d/17xTYBX2RA6Zn2_oPvJT30r7zzOj_cjwv/view?usp=sharing btw question to D3AD-R3TARD do u remember NTC or recognize netwars.pl? | ||
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patetique
115 Posts
this bot was created for a balanced game, not for organizing a championship. player C will always be player C. maybe sometimes B or D, but after 100 games - it is unlikely that anything will change. the admin counted the players, this is done for EVERYONE, not just the best, that is why resource balancing is done this way. do you think it is difficult to get into the SABC game? well, try to find a place in the CDE game in the evening. every year someone tries to stand out, to show that he is better and he is bored playing with the rest. well, ok. go to the Korean server. CDEF is the majority. and it cannot depend on the minority. try chip in some money every month, offer the admin to launch a dedicated server for you. SAB or whatever you want.. we were given the opportunity to play in balance. they maintain a rating. it is inappropriate to demand something.. | ||
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BGHplayer
13 Posts
On September 26 2024 01:08 patetique wrote: our admin is a mathematician, not a tournament or championship organizer. this bot was created for a balanced game, not for organizing a championship. player C will always be player C. maybe sometimes B or D, but after 100 games - it is unlikely that anything will change. the admin counted the players, this is done for EVERYONE, not just the best, that is why resource balancing is done this way. do you think it is difficult to get into the SABC game? well, try to find a place in the CDE game in the evening. every year someone tries to stand out, to show that he is better and he is bored playing with the rest. well, ok. go to the Korean server. CDEF is the majority. and it cannot depend on the minority. try chip in some money every month, offer the admin to launch a dedicated server for you. SAB or whatever you want.. we were given the opportunity to play in balance. they maintain a rating. it is inappropriate to demand something.. First this was just a suggestion not demanding anything. Second, if you actually red what was suggested you wouldn't make senseless comments- majority is still gonna be CDE ranks with 60 or more percent of the ladder. Third, this is not about counting players, just a tweak to the fixed percentages for each rank slot, and increasing some of the higher slots will not change anything to players count, only players distribution by ranks. "do you think it is difficult to get into the SABC game? well, try to find a place in the CDE game" That is exactly the reason also to fix that, because now C+D+E+F are 700 ppl or 70+percent, once higher level C goes to B and those percentages got about 40:60 or similar, both rooms should get even distribution. | ||
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Wormer
Russian Federation77 Posts
I see. Towards your last comment: from my experience these guys who troll people also come from mid-high C ranks. Your suggestion is viable, although I would vote for one bot designated to SA only games during the SAB time with your reranking. I don't yet belong to that group, but I feel like elite-only games is the request. If those games keep collect enough people and running, then why not? Just please keep the proportion. @patetique You really didn't get the point. Maybe re-read discussion if you want a more involved answer. This talk is about designation of some % of the games to the more symmetric high ranked teams where the difference in skill is narrower than between S and C. | ||
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