• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:13
CEST 09:13
KST 16:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins Maestros of the Game 227ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 29-July 5): Solar Doubles0MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon415.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes40Weekly Cups (June 22-28): Zergs thrive in new patch5[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins Maestros of the Game 2 Is the larve respawn broken? 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) 5.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes Weekly Cups (June 29-July 5): Solar Doubles
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Vespene Cup #1 — $300+ USD, July 10
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 533 Die Together The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery
Brood War
General
Snow On New ASL S22 Map, Zerg Nerf BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Starcraft vs Retro Category on Twitch Data needed
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Power Rank Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Major Shifts in the Gaming I…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4854 users

BW maps cannot exceed 192xXXX ??

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
July 06 2018 07:26 GMT
#1
Hello-

I was wondering if there was an issue with making the selection screen on the minimap smaller because I think that other than that, we could have much better 3 player maps if we took the ones we already had, such as Rush Hour and just stretched them out and allowed for some dead space.

What are your general thoughts on 3 player maps vs 4 player maps? I know from talking on this forum that 3 player maps are harder to make and therefore rarer. However, if 128x192 were used, I feel this could be mitigated somewhat. Yet I've never seen a competitive match on a map larger than 128x128.

Can anyone help me here?

Thanks!
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51639 Posts
July 06 2018 16:12 GMT
#2
problem with dead space is that air units can abuse it and unlike sc2, you can't make it so that they can't fly into it.
Commentator
linestein
Profile Blog Joined June 2018
United States210 Posts
July 06 2018 17:58 GMT
#3
a big map could be cool. i wouldn't like dead space except around the corners.
"You can wish to be rich, you can wish to be tall. You can wish away the haters, you just gimme a call" ---Will Smith & DJ Khaled "Friend Like Me (End Title)"
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19368 Posts
July 13 2018 17:07 GMT
#4
Moved from blogs to Brood War general. It should get more responses this way.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1534 Posts
July 13 2018 22:59 GMT
#5
One major problem with map sizes above 128x128 is that they do not fill out the minimal properly. The minimap is always 64², 128² or 256², making it much harder to identify things on it or use minimap clicks with a reasonable amount of precision.

As for 3 player maps in particular, the problem is not in size but in shape. Stretching a 3-fold symmetrical object into a rectangular frame is even harder than fitting it into a square.
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
July 13 2018 23:07 GMT
#6
Here is my take on bigger maps (I’ve been making melee maps for about 10 years now, give or take a few breaks in between). I tend to think of map attributes basically in terms of buffs/nerfs so I can better think about balance. I spend more time thinking about map making nowadays than actually doing it, though :0

Nothing is stopping anybody from making 3 player or even 4 player maps bigger than 128x128. Part of it is you don’t really need any size bigger than 128x128 for a well executed map. Players and map makers have gotten used to distances and the game timings (rushes, Econ build defense, etc.) that come with the “standard” map sizes, so it makes sense to stick to those and introduce more things that players are unfamiliar with. Too many unfamiliar elements and more players on average will reject it, although it might have more potential for experimentation.

Another aspect of using larger maps is that they slow the pace of the game. As I said before, longer distances impede aggressive strategies, making some rushes not viable or giving the defending player more time to prepare for an attack. This can become a problem in balance in some matchups since every non-mirror match up is a fight between a more mobile army vs a less mobile army. There has to be a balance in linear vs nonlinear pathing/chokes vs open areas/multiple paths vs one path. The bigger the map, the bigger the problems a less mobile army has vs the opposing more mobile force. In TvP for example, a very open map with large distances makes it difficult for a Terran to navigate from their initial push to the enemy’s base without being outflanked and taking a disadvantageous engage or simply having their army circumvented and their base counterattacked. You can then make arguments on whether vultures become much more powerful in larger map settings, although they aren’t necessarily a terran’s main force. However, it is widely accepted that in terms of mobility the hierarchy goes Z>P>T. Mobility doesn’t always translate to a secure win, but I can make an argument in more outplay potential.

Related to the mobility issue is that air units become more effective in relation to ground units the more complex the terrain on the map is. In larger maps, this effect is amplified. We all know that the shortest path between 2 points is a line... so it stands to reason that as nonlinear distances (ground distances) become longer, linear distances (air distances) become more advantageous by comparison. Then you have to think about how this affects racial balance since all 3 races have different air units and requirements to get them.

These are a few things to consider with bigger maps.

Now let’s talk about execution. At first glance the best way to create a symmetrical 3 player map is to use an equilateral triangle with a point in the center of the map as the center of the triangle as a template for distances and proportions. Now, if you were to rotate this triangle 360 degrees around the center point, you’d see the edges of the triangle effectively make a circle. But StarCraft maps are not circular, they are square or rectangular. If you make your 3 player map “perfectly” symmetrical (which is not possible with isometric tiles and an angled top-down perspective anyways), the corners are wasted. So fitting a circle inside a square results in wasted space, especially in the corners. Now some people disagree here in terms of wasted space = a bad thing, but I am in the camp that thinks it is overall a bad thing. It is not bad in the sense that it is an outright “wrong”, something that almost everyone agrees is a bad thing (like making every base on a map in siege tank range for example). I think of it as wasted potential, unless the “unused space” has a purpose, then it is not necessarily wasted. Another way to think about it is opportunity cost. What could that space be alternatively used for? If the space is repurposed with little to no negative effects on gameplay and instead makes the map overall better, then it is a worthwhile change. Keep in mind that some empty space is important. I’m mostly talking about the corners of 3 player maps on 128x128 here, but it is not limited to that. I’ll talk about nonstandard 3 player map layouts like Outsider, El Niño, Plasma later.

If you think your map has used all wasted space as efficiently as possible as your map concept allows, and there is still wasted space, I’d have to disagree and encourage you to reconsider. It is most likely that either your execution of your concept was not optimal, or that there were failures in the planning stages of the map concept. Perhaps your map would be better fitted on a smaller map (sizes like 128x112 or 112x128 are viable for example). I wonder if Plasma was ever initially planned as a 128x128 3-player map and then they realized a smaller size would suffice because of some of these reasons. Perhaps this will happen when you make a bigger map as well. You realize that your idea would be better fitted on a regular 128x128 map size instead of something bigger. So why bother on anything bigger? (It also means more work, something I’m not a fan of)

Here we come back to the problem of the 3 player map with a centered circle in the middle, wasting the 4 corners of the map - thank you Testbug for this advice in my early days, wherever you are now

The simple solution? A Hexagon. A picture would save me words here but hopefully you get the idea (I’m on mobile). Or another way to think about it, 2 equilateral triangles (Jewish Star of David). You start with the three player spawns for the first triangle, roughly speaking. Then the points of the other triangle in the spaces in between the first triangle’s points. I’ll probably just show a picture here in a later edit.

This means you have to stretch part of the map into the corners, but the map will not be stretched symmetrically, so this creates problems of positional imbalances if not executed correctly. It ultimately comes down to the map maker and their ability to compromise on different areas of the map without sacrificing gameplay. Add to this the layer of technical limitations (ramps and bridges don’t face every direction you want them to, isometric tile shenanigans, cliff asymmetry, different tileset limitations, etc.) and you start getting a picture of why this is difficult to pull off and why mirrored or symmetrical 2 player maps are probably the easiest to execute, and why rotational symmetry is probably one of the hardest.

However, you can circumvent some of these issues by using nonstandard map layouts like Plasma or Outsider. Sure, these maps still use rotational symmetry, but they get around the problem of the circular element of 3 player maps and instead have their concept and execution place an emphasis on the square/rectangular edges of the map. Obviously this introduces different problems, but it is definitely a nice change of flavor symmetry-wise (which I like a lot). A good question to ask I think is there some other type of weirder symmetry that would be fun to try out in a 3 player map (that isn’t game breaking)?

Anyways I’m just rambling but these are some things I like to think about when it comes to larger maps (and why I stay away from making them lol). It’s more work :/
www.broodwarmaps.net
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
July 13 2018 23:33 GMT
#7
what are the main guidelines for a balanced map? i remember reading something like, easily secured 2nd base with not too large choke (for PvZ presumably)

i guess with a new map style it miiiiight turn out balanced but chances are no? definitely would be a different meta and might need figuring out... whereas the standard map style is balanced by virtue of statistics
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 47m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 167
ProTech120
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 40236
GuemChi 2212
Leta 614
Shuttle 603
Mong 344
actioN 154
ggaemo 89
ZergMaN 67
Aegong 54
yabsab 40
[ Show more ]
Bale 25
GoRush 16
Icarus 9
League of Legends
Doublelift4533
JimRising 654
Counter-Strike
m0e_tv483
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King103
Other Games
summit1g5772
Happy206
NeuroSwarm123
Liquid`Ken12
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick27136
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota250
League of Legends
• Jankos1080
• Rush911
• Stunt469
• HappyZerGling78
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 47m
CrankTV Team League
3h 47m
OSC
9h 47m
Replay Cast
16h 47m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
CrankTV Team League
1d 3h
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
RSL Revival
2 days
Serral vs Bunny
ByuN vs GgMaChine
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Snow vs Jaedong
YSC vs hero
RSL Revival
3 days
Solar vs Rogue
Maru vs NightMare
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Heroes Pulsing #3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W2
ASL Season 22: Wild Card Qualifier
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Eternal Conflict S2 E2
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.