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This is my rebuttal to DoctorHelvetica's "Welcome to the S-Class"
I got to admit I don't really read a lot of these opinion tributes cus most of them are just puff pieces with no clear semblance of focus or insight other than the obvious fandom, the straw-grasping, the reiteration, making mountains out of mole hills, etc.
I just read this though.
I gotta say Jaedong has been innovative, Flash has been innovative, Stork has been innovative, even Bisu has been varied in his play although his strength was never to massively experiment post-savior. Maybe none of their reputations rest on being revolutionary so much as being good at one of a few of the diff. aspects of the game, i.e. multitasking, management, harassment, attack/defense, etc. etc. They adapted as people adapted to them, so in various measures they have innovated. They wouldn't have won so much just on physical abilities. Everybody innovated.
Off the top of my head I can name innovations from everyone you mentioned. Jaedong's neo-sauron beat Bisu's sair reaver. You don't see that anymore do you? Stork's double speed shuttle essentially won him the osl, and put best into a slump. His double shuttle bulldog recently proved yet again why he's the king of PvT. Flash came to dominate with a trend-reversing TvP build and has been experimenting with various TvZ builds as of late. So on and so forth.
What you're looking for is a revelation. I'm happy to say that not every bonjwa brought a revelation with him in the form of some styles that everybody copied. I'm thinking Boxer (he was retroactively named bonjwa really). And some players whose styles are copied extensively, aren't bonjwa. July anyone? He was the first zerg master to truly bring it to the Terrans. Savior's known for his dominance, but look closer, you discover that he was the zerg turtle. His claim to fame is in his total defeat of SK Terran (the unit compo), among other lesser things. His fall? He couldn't turtle anymore - vT or vP.
The last great revelation was Bisu's PvZ, thanks to Savior. Why? Cus Savior's widely copied. But Bisu's PvZ style couldn't be copied. For a long time he was the only one who won on that style.
So who was the real force behind the reversal in PvZ a while back? This surprises a lot of people, though it shouldn't: It was  Kal and his ground-based style. The +1 speed zealot 2 archon timing rush won more games for the Protoss race as a collective, and was way more widely used - till its death at the hands of Jaedong and the zerg simcity. Bisu proved consistent PvZ is possible in the minds of the public, but Kal's was the winning bid for all Protoss.
So the argument that a bonjwa has to be so influential is wrong. Bonjwa is just someone who wins everything, that's why pop came up with the 3msl-1osl pattern and I even discussed it back then (I think he even came up with the November birth month...which is kinda crackpipping). Some like Nada, OOv, and Savior have been widely influential, but it's by no means a requirement that a bonjwa does, or a non-bonjwa does not. It's simply a straight-forward way to catch a lot of attention, and in Kal 's case, not a lot of attention.
To sum up, bonjwa is a social construct created by the fans. There's no bonjwa cus we are forced to recognize more than one. OOv said it perfectly in what is IMO one of the all-time great interviews.
- What do you think of the discussion surrounding “Bonjwa?”
The standard for being ‘good’ changes all the time. I think Bonjwa is simply being recognized by people. Bonjwa is someone who everyone is forced to recognize, all the people in the industry, the fans, and even his detractors. It would be silly to declare myself a Bonjwa, but I think it’s correct that Boxer, Nada, and Savior were Bonjwas. A player recognized by all the fans can become a Bonjwa.
And just look at him, innovating from beyond the grave. Obviously he's not dead, he just doesn't play much anymore. His last individual league appearance was GomTV MSL 4, but that wasn't the last of OOv, as evident in fantasy's mech play. Although it was defeated shortly after by Jaedong and Zero, it inspired  UpMaGiC to create his Wachanic style which did sustain the mech trend.
And if you still want another example, I've got one for you outside of the realms of Starcraft: Read "The No-Stats All-Star" and learn about Houston Rockets' Shane Battier. Now you know why he's up there at the top. And bottom.
-J
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I read the article you linked to - enjoyed it a bunch.
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"What you're looking for is a revolution. I'm happy to say that not every bonjwa brought a revolution with him in the form of some styles that everybody copied."
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This isn't really a rebuttal to my article. Being revolutionary doesn't make you a bonjwa (YellOw, July, Bisu) and all 4 bonjwas both dominated the game at a high level as well as changing the style of play.
It's a good article and I actually agree with almost everything you said, so it isn't really much in the way of a rebuttal. I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.
If Jaedong could seperate himself a bit further from his fellow S-Class compatriots, I feel he would easily attain bonjwa status.
UpMagiC is my 2nd favorite terran player after firebathero and I've consistently acknowledged his contribution to mech.
The "point" of my article? There isn't one, it's a perspective piece, don't look for one. There is no argument. It's just how I see the past, present, and future of BroodWar, that's all. The definition of "hero" after all is something different for all of us.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2009 19:39 .risingdragoon wrote:
What you're looking for is a revelation. I'm happy to say that not every bonjwa brought a revelation with him in the form of some styles that everybody copied. I'm thinking Boxer (he was retroactively named bonjwa really). And some players whose styles are copied extensively, aren't bonjwa. July anyone? He was the first zerg master to truly bring it to the Terrans. Savior's known for his dominance, but look closer, you discover that he was the zerg turtle. His claim to fame is in his total defeat of SK Terran (the unit compo), among other lesser things. His fall? He couldn't turtle anymore - vT or vP.
It's not about a specific build or specific style. It's about how they affected the general progression of the game for all races. July's style was copied, but he's not a Bonjwa because his style didn't do anything for the other races. Boxer's exact style wasn't copied, but it advanced an era of general micro-oriented play through all races.
On October 19 2009 19:39 .risingdragoon wrote:The last great revelation was Bisu's PvZ, thanks to Savior. Why? Cus Savior's widely copied. But Bisu's PvZ style couldn't be copied. For a long time he was the only one who won on that style. So who was the real force behind the reversal in PvZ a while back? This surprises a lot of people, though it shouldn't: It was Kal and his ground-based style. The +1 speed zealot 2 archon timing rush won more games for the Protoss race as a collective, and was way more widely used - till its death at the hands of Jaedong and the zerg simcity. Bisu proved consistent PvZ is possible in the minds of the public, but Kal's was the winning bid for all Protoss.
This is entirely a one-matchup analysis, and is, in my opinion, irrelevant. To me, the acid test is along the lines of: what influence did the player have on the matchups entirely irrelevant to them? Kal and Bisu, despite their innovations for the Protoss matchups, have not made any contribution to how TvZ plays. By comparison, it's very arguable that the macro focus that iloveoov set Starcraft on pervaded in all matchups, including matchups he never played--like ZvP and PvP.
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I have to agree with DH. It's more of a response rather than a rebuttal.
The players mentioned are in a category of their own. This is what we see in E-Sports as it is today. I don't think we'll ever see another player dominate PL/OSL/MSL/etc.
It's a new era.
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Right now Movie has the best PvZ if you ask me even though he makes mistakes .
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This constant debate and play on the word bonjwa is kinda tiresome.
But OP likes Kal, so I have to like him. Easy as that.
(That Battier article you linked is pretty nicely done, its a tad long though:-p)
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On October 20 2009 04:53 raga4ka wrote:
Right now Movie has the best PvZ if you ask me even though he makes mistakes .
No, not even close, try again.
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On October 20 2009 05:02 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 04:53 raga4ka wrote:
Right now Movie has the best PvZ if you ask me even though he makes mistakes . No, not even close, try again.
BackHo ?
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On October 19 2009 20:15 Zona wrote:
I read the article you linked to - enjoyed it a bunch.
Yeah, I hate basketball too, but this article is really interesting. lol this dude just puts those cocky douches like lebron in their places and they can't even admit it.
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Boxer was good at his time, and making him a retroactive bonjwa makes sense because like hotbid accurately stated in his article, microing around like crazy with 3k minerals in your bank isn't really that much of feat. The other Bonjwas on the other hand combined crazy micro with crazy macro, at least Nada and Savior did. Oov relied on his cheater macro alone pretty much.
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so to your definition who is in s class
and who is bonjwa?
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On October 20 2009 05:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 20:15 Zona wrote:
I read the article you linked to - enjoyed it a bunch. Yeah, I hate basketball too, but this article is really interesting. lol this dude just puts those cocky douches like lebron in their places and they can't even admit it.
I just finished the entire thing, that is by far one of the best written articles I have ever read.
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On October 20 2009 04:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This isn't really a rebuttal to my article. Being revolutionary doesn't make you a bonjwa (YellOw, July, Bisu) and all 4 bonjwas both dominated the game at a high level as well as changing the style of play.
It's a good article and I actually agree with almost everything you said, so it isn't really much in the way of a rebuttal. I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.
If Jaedong could seperate himself a bit further from his fellow S-Class compatriots, I feel he would easily attain bonjwa status.
UpMagiC is my 2nd favorite terran player after firebathero and I've consistently acknowledged his contribution to mech.
The "point" of my article? There isn't one, it's a perspective piece, don't look for one. There is no argument. It's just how I see the past, present, and future of BroodWar, that's all. The definition of "hero" after all is something different for all of us.
You do have a kindava point going on. You're running around with a crown, looking for a person to put it on. When there's not 1 but several, you toss the gold one and gets several silver ones and call that s-class.
Listen to oov, read about battier. If you hope to find another bonjwa the criteria has to change with the times. Back in nada's days it literally was one build per mu. OOv came in with one style, the macro one. Savior was so slow yet he read the subtle movements in Terran so well. After that there hasn't been anyone. It's tempting to point to bisu, but he isn't it. Flash, nope. The closest is Jaedong but his outstanding quality, among various good qualities, is his mindset and physicality. People seem to be unconvinced with just that. But it's gonna be his tenacity that will keep him at the top where all past bonjwas have fallen. If he can still win everything, having already won everything, that'll be a new chapter.
And Yellow's not a bonjwa.
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On October 20 2009 07:26 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 04:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This isn't really a rebuttal to my article. Being revolutionary doesn't make you a bonjwa (YellOw, July, Bisu) and all 4 bonjwas both dominated the game at a high level as well as changing the style of play.
It's a good article and I actually agree with almost everything you said, so it isn't really much in the way of a rebuttal. I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.
If Jaedong could seperate himself a bit further from his fellow S-Class compatriots, I feel he would easily attain bonjwa status.
UpMagiC is my 2nd favorite terran player after firebathero and I've consistently acknowledged his contribution to mech.
The "point" of my article? There isn't one, it's a perspective piece, don't look for one. There is no argument. It's just how I see the past, present, and future of BroodWar, that's all. The definition of "hero" after all is something different for all of us. You do have a kindava point going on. You're running around with a crown, looking for a person to put it on. When there's not 1 but several, you toss the gold one and gets several silver ones and call that s-class. Listen to oov, read about battier. If you hope to find another bonjwa the criteria has to change with the times. Back in nada's days it literally was one build per mu. OOv came in with one style, the macro one. Savior was so slow yet he read the subtle movements in Terran so well. After that there hasn't been anyone. It's tempting to point to bisu, but he isn't it. Flash, nope. The closest is Jaedong but his outstanding quality, among various good qualities, is his mindset and physicality. People seem to be unconvinced with just that. But it's gonna be his tenacity that will keep him at the top where all past bonjwas have fallen. If he can still win everything, having already won everything, that'll be a new chapter. And Yellow's not a bonjwa.
I agree with literally every single thing you've said. You just completely misunderstood me.
For instance, I never even implied YellOw was a bonjwa.
And I read the Battier article, it was very good.
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That was a response to your article, and I guess what it represents to me.
I think my own point is to be my own keen observer, be anti-bandwagon, to give just dues to players who deserve them and not just the showiest top 3% at the moment (aka s-class, s for silver crown). There's enough people for that already. Honestly I'd rather be done with all the broad-speculating, all of it, and just watch the game for details.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/02/07/magazine/15battier-600.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/02/15/magazine/15battier.4-500.jpg)
