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Definition of SC Cheese

Blogs > Aqo[il]
Post a Reply
Aqo[il]
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Israel183 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:19:53
July 18 2009 07:15 GMT
#1
I've seen lots of people argue about what's cheese and what's not and I think there should be one dictionary-type definition that the SC community should agree on to settle this once and for all.

Here is my suggestion: Cheese Tactics are tactics that rely on luck to be effective, and if you're unlucky they would put you behind.

---

[ Examples ]

If you go by this definition, 4/5/6pool is definitely cheese. You're basically hoping P FEs and doesn't scout you until it's too late to send probes to defend his warping cannons. If he went 2gate you're royally fucked, 5-6 probes + zealot can handle your lings well enough and your macro is horribly behind, not to mention he'll have 3 zea quickly.
Early pool in ZvT is retarded, you're basically hoping T doesn't wall, and if he does you already lost.
The only map where you'd want to 4/5/6 pool ZvT is Colosseum, for obvious reason. But even then, take note that 5pool lings come 20 seconds earlier than 9pool.

5pool in ZvZ loses to every single thing Z can do - 9pool, overpool, 12pool, even 12hat, are all a direct counter to 5pool, so if you earlypool in ZvZ shame on you, you won't be getting wins against any player ranked higher than D+ like that (or hell anyone that knows how to micro and how to ZvZ).

BBS is cheese because you're relying on countering a certain opening build, so that he can't respond. If his build was one that gives him the units to counter yours and he's not a complete noob, time to type gg.

5/6probe Proxy gates is cheese because, once again, you're basically relying on your opponent to have bad building placement to deal with the units from those gates and scouting them too late. If his simcity is good and/or he scouted them early, you just wasted a high amount of earlygame minerals and you have to play from a handicapped position.

Proxy robo is not cheese, it's clever play, when you do it you already scouted your opponent and you know his movement patterns so you know where to place it correctly. It's not any more cheese than Z's entire macro - where drone production relies entirely on anticipating the opponent's next move based on information you already have.

Hidden factory/rax float in TvZ isn't cheese because while it relies on not being scouted to truly be effective, it doesn't put you behind if it's scouted, it just won't give you an advantage.

---

So what do you people think about this definition?

Cheese
- Relies on luck to be effective
- Puts you significantly behind if you were unlucky

*
Reavers. Lurkers. Vultures. Defilers. Corsairs. Vessels. Why did they remove all the cool units from SC2...?
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
July 18 2009 07:22 GMT
#2
You should add in that while all cheeses are all-ins, not all all-ins are cheeses.
Example: Hydra all-ins in ZvP
theobsessed1
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States576 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:23:15
July 18 2009 07:22 GMT
#3
Some of them also rely heavily on micro, at least compared to other standard openings. Luck does play a large factor (scouting, opening builds, etc.) like you already said.

Are all-in plays always considered to be cheese as well?

Edit: Question answered by above post lolol
정명훈 화이팅!~
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:24:00
July 18 2009 07:23 GMT
#4
"I don't cheese" as a T player = I don't BBS? I think that's what I'm seeing here
By that definition though... 1gate dt exp is not a cheese! Shit

Edit: Imo all-in gets mixed up with cheese a lot
@KawaiiRiceLighT
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
July 18 2009 07:30 GMT
#5
cheese is whatever the hell people says it is, because language is elastic. Thread fail. 1/5, would not read again.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
July 18 2009 07:37 GMT
#6
You'll never get a solid definition.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
July 18 2009 07:46 GMT
#7
Stop trying to define a term that means something different to every sc player out there.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
July 18 2009 07:47 GMT
#8
On July 18 2009 16:15 Aqo[il] wrote:
I think there should be one dictionary-type definition that the SC community should agree on to settle this once and for all.



This would be really nice, but its never going to happen. SC is a game that is entirely circumstantial, and its fan are very dumb in general so these semantic arguments are going to happen for eternity.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
July 18 2009 07:51 GMT
#9

im ok with cheese just being a build order executed below a certain supply threshold, for example zerg 6 pool is cheese, BBS is cheese, 7 pylon proxy gate is cheese etc)

however there are shitloads of cheesey builds in ZvP that can be executed off 2 base, like 2 hatch hydra all in or 2 hatch mutas 2 hatch lurker drop etc.

it's a loose term,i dont think people will ever agree on a rigid definition.
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
July 18 2009 08:06 GMT
#10
12hat directly counters 5pool?

looooooool
Moderator。◕‿◕。
georgir
Profile Joined May 2009
Bulgaria253 Posts
July 18 2009 09:15 GMT
#11
the community can never agree to anything.
50bani
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Romania480 Posts
July 18 2009 11:48 GMT
#12
A strategy that relies on the element of surprise.

And no, it is not only about early rushes hidden tech on the map and proxies, 2 base carrier is also cheese and that is mid-to-late game. FE into 4 rax sunken break against 3 hatch is also cheese, any bio vs p, any 1 or 2 hatch lurker, 2 gas hive after 2 hatch muta, and i would also mention that any map particularity that you can exploit to get units in someone's main like temples on medusa is also cheese
I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
flag
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States228 Posts
July 18 2009 15:20 GMT
#13
that is a bad definition because technically "non cheese" builds rely on luck in that if they do a super econ build (14 cc) you will be behind, which by your definition makes them cheese (thus all builds are cheese)
CrimsonLotus
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Colombia1123 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 16:33:53
July 18 2009 16:33 GMT
#14
Nobody can really agree to what "cheese" is, but at least is fun to show your own theory.

I've always heard that if you face a clearily superior player in a tournament, you should cheese to have a chance of winning, therefore i believe that cheese should be defined as an early agression that relies on surprise (since the opponent is more skilled) to try and end the game before the difference in skill becomes too relevant.

This way, something like 14 Nexus or two base Carriers would not be considered cheese, since they do not aim for early agression nor ending the game quickly.

Just my opinion.
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