• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:39
CEST 19:39
KST 02:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202529RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 877 users

Definition of SC Cheese

Blogs > Aqo[il]
Post a Reply
Aqo[il]
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Israel183 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:19:53
July 18 2009 07:15 GMT
#1
I've seen lots of people argue about what's cheese and what's not and I think there should be one dictionary-type definition that the SC community should agree on to settle this once and for all.

Here is my suggestion: Cheese Tactics are tactics that rely on luck to be effective, and if you're unlucky they would put you behind.

---

[ Examples ]

If you go by this definition, 4/5/6pool is definitely cheese. You're basically hoping P FEs and doesn't scout you until it's too late to send probes to defend his warping cannons. If he went 2gate you're royally fucked, 5-6 probes + zealot can handle your lings well enough and your macro is horribly behind, not to mention he'll have 3 zea quickly.
Early pool in ZvT is retarded, you're basically hoping T doesn't wall, and if he does you already lost.
The only map where you'd want to 4/5/6 pool ZvT is Colosseum, for obvious reason. But even then, take note that 5pool lings come 20 seconds earlier than 9pool.

5pool in ZvZ loses to every single thing Z can do - 9pool, overpool, 12pool, even 12hat, are all a direct counter to 5pool, so if you earlypool in ZvZ shame on you, you won't be getting wins against any player ranked higher than D+ like that (or hell anyone that knows how to micro and how to ZvZ).

BBS is cheese because you're relying on countering a certain opening build, so that he can't respond. If his build was one that gives him the units to counter yours and he's not a complete noob, time to type gg.

5/6probe Proxy gates is cheese because, once again, you're basically relying on your opponent to have bad building placement to deal with the units from those gates and scouting them too late. If his simcity is good and/or he scouted them early, you just wasted a high amount of earlygame minerals and you have to play from a handicapped position.

Proxy robo is not cheese, it's clever play, when you do it you already scouted your opponent and you know his movement patterns so you know where to place it correctly. It's not any more cheese than Z's entire macro - where drone production relies entirely on anticipating the opponent's next move based on information you already have.

Hidden factory/rax float in TvZ isn't cheese because while it relies on not being scouted to truly be effective, it doesn't put you behind if it's scouted, it just won't give you an advantage.

---

So what do you people think about this definition?

Cheese
- Relies on luck to be effective
- Puts you significantly behind if you were unlucky

*
Reavers. Lurkers. Vultures. Defilers. Corsairs. Vessels. Why did they remove all the cool units from SC2...?
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
July 18 2009 07:22 GMT
#2
You should add in that while all cheeses are all-ins, not all all-ins are cheeses.
Example: Hydra all-ins in ZvP
theobsessed1
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States576 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:23:15
July 18 2009 07:22 GMT
#3
Some of them also rely heavily on micro, at least compared to other standard openings. Luck does play a large factor (scouting, opening builds, etc.) like you already said.

Are all-in plays always considered to be cheese as well?

Edit: Question answered by above post lolol
정명훈 화이팅!~
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 07:24:00
July 18 2009 07:23 GMT
#4
"I don't cheese" as a T player = I don't BBS? I think that's what I'm seeing here
By that definition though... 1gate dt exp is not a cheese! Shit

Edit: Imo all-in gets mixed up with cheese a lot
@KawaiiRiceLighT
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
July 18 2009 07:30 GMT
#5
cheese is whatever the hell people says it is, because language is elastic. Thread fail. 1/5, would not read again.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
July 18 2009 07:37 GMT
#6
You'll never get a solid definition.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
July 18 2009 07:46 GMT
#7
Stop trying to define a term that means something different to every sc player out there.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
July 18 2009 07:47 GMT
#8
On July 18 2009 16:15 Aqo[il] wrote:
I think there should be one dictionary-type definition that the SC community should agree on to settle this once and for all.



This would be really nice, but its never going to happen. SC is a game that is entirely circumstantial, and its fan are very dumb in general so these semantic arguments are going to happen for eternity.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
July 18 2009 07:51 GMT
#9

im ok with cheese just being a build order executed below a certain supply threshold, for example zerg 6 pool is cheese, BBS is cheese, 7 pylon proxy gate is cheese etc)

however there are shitloads of cheesey builds in ZvP that can be executed off 2 base, like 2 hatch hydra all in or 2 hatch mutas 2 hatch lurker drop etc.

it's a loose term,i dont think people will ever agree on a rigid definition.
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
July 18 2009 08:06 GMT
#10
12hat directly counters 5pool?

looooooool
Moderator。◕‿◕。
georgir
Profile Joined May 2009
Bulgaria253 Posts
July 18 2009 09:15 GMT
#11
the community can never agree to anything.
50bani
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Romania480 Posts
July 18 2009 11:48 GMT
#12
A strategy that relies on the element of surprise.

And no, it is not only about early rushes hidden tech on the map and proxies, 2 base carrier is also cheese and that is mid-to-late game. FE into 4 rax sunken break against 3 hatch is also cheese, any bio vs p, any 1 or 2 hatch lurker, 2 gas hive after 2 hatch muta, and i would also mention that any map particularity that you can exploit to get units in someone's main like temples on medusa is also cheese
I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
flag
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States228 Posts
July 18 2009 15:20 GMT
#13
that is a bad definition because technically "non cheese" builds rely on luck in that if they do a super econ build (14 cc) you will be behind, which by your definition makes them cheese (thus all builds are cheese)
CrimsonLotus
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Colombia1123 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 16:33:53
July 18 2009 16:33 GMT
#14
Nobody can really agree to what "cheese" is, but at least is fun to show your own theory.

I've always heard that if you face a clearily superior player in a tournament, you should cheese to have a chance of winning, therefore i believe that cheese should be defined as an early agression that relies on surprise (since the opponent is more skilled) to try and end the game before the difference in skill becomes too relevant.

This way, something like 14 Nexus or two base Carriers would not be considered cheese, since they do not aim for early agression nor ending the game quickly.

Just my opinion.
444 444 444 444
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 1
herO vs LancerLIVE!
Cure vs ShoWTimELIVE!
EWC_Arena7054
ComeBackTV 2243
EWC_Arena_22156
TaKeTV 749
Hui .431
3DClanTV 357
Berry_CruncH245
CranKy Ducklings203
EnkiAlexander 198
Rex196
UpATreeSC182
mcanning178
Reynor151
davetesta11
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena7054
EWC_Arena_22156
Hui .431
Rex 196
UpATreeSC 182
mcanning 178
Reynor 151
StarCraft: Brood War
Barracks 1112
Bisu 1002
Mini 656
EffOrt 579
Larva 571
Stork 235
Aegong 58
PianO 25
soO 23
scan(afreeca) 18
[ Show more ]
Sharp 17
Movie 12
ivOry 6
JulyZerg 5
League of Legends
Dendi1047
Counter-Strike
fl0m2015
byalli243
oskar176
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor325
XaKoH 129
Other Games
singsing1912
ceh91879
syndereN213
Trikslyr59
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LUISG 0
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 5
• FirePhoenix5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2655
• masondota21142
• WagamamaTV346
League of Legends
• Nemesis4869
• TFBlade905
Other Games
• imaqtpie631
• Shiphtur360
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
16h 21m
Esports World Cup
1d 16h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.