• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:18
CEST 23:18
KST 06:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro4 Preview: On Course12Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview7[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win1Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !10Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results1
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 2 Qualifiers $5,000 WardiTV Spring Championship 2026 Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! SC2 INu's Battles#16 <BO.9> Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 525 Wheel of Misfortune The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes Mutation # 523 Firewall
Brood War
General
(Spoiler) Interview ASL Ro4 Day 2 Winner Data needed Flashes ASL S21 Ro8 Review ASL Tickets to Live Event Finals? Pros React To: Leta vs Tulbo (ASL S21, Ro.8)
Tourneys
[ASL21] Semifinals B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Semifinals A [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May
Strategy
[G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2170 users

ICCup report 3

Blogs > Dromar
Post a Reply
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-19 06:10:03
July 19 2008 06:06 GMT
#1
I'm gonna just get right to it: My rank is now 1839, and I'm about to get to D+, and I honestly don't feel I deserve to be called a D+ player. I can only win like 1/3 of games against D players, so why should I be considered D+? I should actually be D- I would think. I guess that's just not how the iCCup ranking system works. This update is a little small (only 20 games played since the last), but I'm basically going whenever I have questions or just something to say, which is now. So off we go:

1v1 analysis:

Zerg(76 games)
(16)ZvZ: 6-10 37.5%
(32)ZvP:12-20 37.5%
(28)ZvT: 6-22 21.4%

overall:24-52 31.5%

since last report:

Zerg(20 games)
( 4)ZvZ: 2- 2 50.0%
( 9)ZvP: 5- 4 55.6%
( 7)ZvT: 0- 7 0.0%

ZvZ: Haven't played many ZvZ games since my last update, but some new developments have arisen. Of the 4 ZvZ games I've played, I've been gassed twice. By gassed, I mean they sent a drone scout, and built an extractor on my gas.
The first time it happened was Tau Cross, where I responded by taking my nat (3rd hatch), and proceeding to lose the game like a noob because I forgot to make my lair long after I had enough gas. I feel I could have won that game had I gotten my lair and spire at the correct times, or just gotten spores a bit earlier. In fact, both my ZvZ losses came from me idiotically forgetting to upgrade to lair and/or forgetting to build spire. Hopefully I can rectify that easy problem.
Anyway, the second game I got gassed was on Blue Storm, and it made me realize that I have to have a plan to deal with this, since on 2 player maps, they can gas me easily if they wish to. This time I responded with a hidden hatch (3rd hatch) and mass speedlings just before his spire finished (ee han timing is easy with overlords )

ZvP: Uh, seeing that 5-4 record made me check my replays to figure out how I won. Basically, mutas rock in pretty much every way. 3hatch or 4hatch muta, almost like I'm playing ZvT, except I trade a couple mutas for scourge to deal with sairs (and scourge are way cheaper too). The great harassing power and mobility of mutas has basically allowed me to deny expansions, harass mineral lines, thwart the inevitable +1 speed zeals (see visual aid)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

and generally delay the protoss until I build up some sort of army and move in for the kill. Of course, we'll see how long this lasts.

ZvT: Well, still getting owned in ZvT. I don't know how I did it before. In the beginning, ZvT was my best matchup, wtf happened? Ok, so partially I've been trying to do 2hatch mutas, and have been failing miserably because I don't know the BO. See my ZvT question.

Questions:

ZvZ:
1. What good responses exist to getting gassed in ZvZ? What is the mindset/gameplan of a player who gasses his opponent in ZvZ?

ZvP:
1. A ZvP I played on Blue Storm opened like this: I'm rematching a guy I just played, and my overpool speed left me a bit weak economically, and he defended it pretty well, so this game I decide to go 12pool. It just so happened that on Blue Storm, I was ready to lay down my 3rd hatch, meanwhile my overlord had just barely gotten to his nat, and all I was able to see at the time was a gateway in his nat (and no nexus), but I placed my 3rd at my min only anyway, since it's so close to my main and nat, he's not going 2gate or proxy gate (since I would have been pressured by now) and I'm laying down a hat anyway. So it got me thinking: Is there any reason NOT to take a 3rd base immediately with your 3rd hatch in ZvP regardless of scouting info (taking into account that you know by then that he's not doing something really aggressive)?
2. This one is actually more of a rant, so I'll spoiler it.
+ Show Spoiler +
Why do some protosses think it's "LAME" or cheesy to go overpool speedling runby? I can think of 4 things that are more lame:
a) A single DT killing all 15 drones at my main, and me not finding out until he starts on the spawning pool.
b) Same, but with Psi Storm.
c) Same, but with reavers.
d) Protosses who think they can FE all the time without repercussion. This isn't nr20min.
Honestly, if you prepare for it, scout it, and/or deal with it well, the zerg can get himself far behind, and just because there's a few lings in your base doesn't mean you're losing.


ZvT:
1. How do you do 2hatch muta? I really know nothing about it, except the idea is to get mutas really fast. I assumed you opened 9pool speed to deny scouting/harass with speedlings, but trying that left me with no money at all. I didn't have 150 minerals to make lair, I didn't have 150 minerals to make spire, I didn't have 200 minerals to make ovies, and I didn't have 600 minerals to make mutas. So then I tried overpool speedlings, which IMO really sucks ZvT, since there's no way the lings will get there in time to actually do damage. It helped a tiny bit, but not much. Basically, either I don't have enough minerals, or it's not fast enough. The only other alternative it seems is to allow terran to scout your build, which I just assumed was a very bad idea. So, please, school me on the art of 2hatch muta.


I think that's all for now.
As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.



*****
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 19 2008 06:12 GMT
#2
Normally 2hatch muta is
12hatch
11pool
10 or 13gas, I've seen both
Lair with first 100 gas
Second gas when Spire is at 50%
Save up
Make Mutalisks
???
Win ez.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Dr.Dragoon
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1241 Posts
July 19 2008 06:18 GMT
#3
I noticed that there's a lot more protosses on iccup, and they're usually worse than players of the other 2 races that I come across, at least in D/D+ ranks. Keep up the good work, I can see you're making progress from when I first played you waaay back.
~o~ I have returned
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
July 19 2008 06:26 GMT
#4
On July 19 2008 15:12 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
Normally 2hatch muta is
12hatch
11pool
10 or 13gas, I've seen both
Lair with first 100 gas
Second gas when Spire is at 50%
Save up
Make Mutalisks
???
Win ez.


How does this not get owned hard as soon as terran sees you're not putting down a 3rd hatch? I guess maybe he won't be sure until he scouts around the map for a hidden 3rd?

I'll try it anyways. I was thinking I'd have to go for a more econo opening. 9pool speed just has such a shitty economy.
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 19 2008 06:28 GMT
#5
On July 19 2008 15:26 Dromar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2008 15:12 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
Normally 2hatch muta is
12hatch
11pool
10 or 13gas, I've seen both
Lair with first 100 gas
Second gas when Spire is at 50%
Save up
Make Mutalisks
???
Win ez.


How does this not get owned hard as soon as terran sees you're not putting down a 3rd hatch? I guess maybe he won't be sure until he scouts around the map for a hidden 3rd?

I'll try it anyways. I was thinking I'd have to go for a more econo opening. 9pool speed just has such a shitty economy.


In all honesty, I don't know. I used to 2hatch muta every game, and it seemed to do damage even if it was scouted; maybe the people i were playing just sucked at that level.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
July 19 2008 06:48 GMT
#6
double hatch vs forge FE protoss. and try for a hydralisk break, if that dont work switch off to mutalisks, theyll have too many cannons guarding front and not enough near minerals.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32278 Posts
July 19 2008 08:18 GMT
#7
The reason you don't take your third right away if you don't scout him first is because it leaves a big timming window were he can attack you, if you want to defend both your bases you would need to sunk at 2 places. If you make a big army to stop him your economy will be shit.

Taking your third on blue storm is cool because the natural access is tiny, but as a drawback you have low ground in your third. On other maps taking your 3rd without scouting is suicide (tau cross, python, etc).
Moderator<:3-/-<
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
July 19 2008 09:00 GMT
#8
On July 19 2008 15:06 Dromar wrote:
The great harassing power and mobility of mutas has basically allowed me to deny expansions, harass mineral lines, thwart the inevitable +1 speed zeals (see visual aid)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



LOL
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
anderoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1876 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-19 14:26:00
July 19 2008 14:25 GMT
#9
In all honesty I wouldn't bother using 2 hatch muta at the lower levels, since most terrans D to C- just 1 rax expand every game and then just turret up like a whore. You can't break his nat on the ground because your larvae is dedicated to muta, you cant harass his eco because he's throwna fuckload of turrets up there, you just kind of end up getting chased around his base by marines while he macros up to go out and steamroll you.

EDIT: and yeah that visual aid is the most badass starcraft analogy I've ever een.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
July 19 2008 14:51 GMT
#10
On July 19 2008 23:25 anderoo wrote:
In all honesty I wouldn't bother using 2 hatch muta at the lower levels, since most terrans D to C- just 1 rax expand every game and then just turret up like a whore. You can't break his nat on the ground because your larvae is dedicated to muta, you cant harass his eco because he's throwna fuckload of turrets up there, you just kind of end up getting chased around his base by marines while he macros up to go out and steamroll you.

EDIT: and yeah that visual aid is the most badass starcraft analogy I've ever een.


Yeah, that's like exactly how the games went, though I executed it wrong.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 42m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason120
Railgan 93
StarCraft: Brood War
Movie 29
910 24
Dota 2
qojqva1161
monkeys_forever322
NeuroSwarm79
Counter-Strike
fl0m5724
Other Games
Grubby5498
FrodaN1534
Beastyqt1022
shahzam640
C9.Mang0235
Liquid`Hasu197
RotterdaM90
Livibee70
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV73
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 47
• musti20045 16
• Hinosc 14
• Reevou 8
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2824
Other Games
• imaqtpie1253
• Scarra606
• Shiphtur376
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h 42m
Replay Cast
11h 42m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
The PondCast
1d 12h
OSC
1d 12h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL
3 days
GSL
4 days
Cure vs herO
SHIN vs Maru
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-11
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Proleague 2026-05-12
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W7
YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
2026 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026: Closed Qualifier
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.